Was this 65' P Bass Refinned?

[thebassman75]

Hi

My '65 P Bass has never been in bits till tonight. I always thought that it was refinned but looking under the pickguard and in the neck pocket, the original colour is there where-as the rest of the bass has faded to a sea-foam green. However, under the neck plate, the colour is the same faded sea-foam green and looks like it was exposed to the air for years (its marked and crackled like the rest of the exposed finish) So, is it the original but aged Daphne Blue, was it re-finned or has it been reliced? The pick-up cavity it the same original Daphne Blue too (although I haven't popped the pick-up yet...

Any thoughts?

Russ

[2meterbassman]

Hi,

this is the Fender color chart for 1965, 66, and 67:



I think the color of your bass is foam green.
But notice that Fender always made custom colors for single customers, too.

Greetz

[thebassman75]

You may be right Greetz. The aged colour is nearer to Foam Green but the colour underneath the pickguard is very blue.. But as Daphne Blue doesn't appear at that time perhaps it points to FG.. BUT, I still can't work out why the paint under the neck-plate is aged as its not been exposed to light in the same way..

[2meterbassman]

Hi,

well - it is a fact that daphne blue is losing pigments over the years and turns greenish.
Because of the color under the neckplate is green too, I think it is a refin.
I can't remember original Fender basses or guitars with paint in the neck pocket.
You see the print of the pole holding the body while painting it - no regular way on Fender guitars.

Seems to be a refin.

Hehehehe, Greetz isn't my name - but a short form for greetings...;-)

Greetz

PS: the holes for the P-bass pups aren't original, too.
I'm afraid, it's no even a Fender.

[awilkie84]

Originally Posted by thebassman75

You may be right Greetz. The aged colour is nearer to Foam Green but the colour underneath the pickguard is very blue.. But as Daphne Blue doesn't appear at that time perhaps it points to FG.. BUT, I still can't work out why the paint under the neck-plate is aged as its not been exposed to light in the same way..

My guess is that because the steel plate was against the wood, any bit of moisture/smoke/etc that comes in contact with the plate would cause oxidization. This oxidization could inflict similar wear on the body at that location. It looks like it might have been cleaned out around the plate, too...which could cause more emphasis on the discolouration.

[thebassman75]

Hi Greetz.. Are you serious that its not a Fender? I know that its been routed for a jazz pickup, which isn't original but everything else checks out. The neck is date stamped and all the pots are correct, as is the logo..

I'm still not convinced on whether its a refin or not. The oxidization theory would make sense..

[bootsox]

Originally Posted by 2meterbassman

Hi,

well - it is a fact that daphne blue is losing pigments over the years and turns greenish.
Because of the color under the neckplate is green too, I think it is a refin.
I can't remember original Fender basses or guitars with paint in the neck pocket.
You see the print of the pole holding the body while painting it - no regular way on Fender guitars.

Seems to be a refin.

Hehehehe, Greetz isn't my name - but a short form for greetings...;-)

Greetz

PS: the holes for the P-bass pups aren't original, too.
I'm afraid, it's no even a Fender.

Fender custom colors were refinished on a steel piece of conduit hammered flat and bolted to the neck pocket.

[2meterbassman]

Originally Posted by bootsox

Fender custom colors were refinished on a steel piece of conduit hammered flat and bolted to the neck pocket.

And the rest of the neck pocket was sprayed, too?
I've never seen that.

[2meterbassman]

Originally Posted by thebassman75

Hi Greetz.. Are you serious that its not a Fender? I know that its been routed for a jazz pickup, which isn't original but everything else checks out. The neck is date stamped and all the pots are correct, as is the logo..

I'm still not convinced on whether its a refin or not. The oxidization theory would make sense..

Hi,

I don't know if it's original or not - there are only photos. :-)

To me, it looks a bit strange.
But you can prove it, if you search for pics of old Fender bodies comparing it.

[thebassman75]

I do know its original. I've had it for years and bought it from a trusted dealer. He suspected it was refinned and I've always gone along with that until I took it apart tonight and found the neck-plate discolouration and the fresher looking clolour under the pick-guard..

[FourBanger]

How long ago did you get it?

The neck pocket looks as if it was stick-mounted for the finish, did Fender ever do it that way?

To me, guessing at the original color based on the chart provided, it looks like it might've been sonic blue which aged/yellowed to green.

Then again, if it was refinned long ago it could have been any color blue and still have faded and worn that much by now.

[miles'tone]

http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html

I say it's the original color and all Fender.
Check out this very comprehensive guide to Fender's colors and how they finished them. Very cool read for those who are interested.
The bit that is the most relevant here is about two fifths of the way down with the sub-heading "The nail holes and the paint stick".

[thebassman75]

I've had it over 10 years.. Fender did stick mount for spraying. It could've been Sonic Blue.. If it is a refin, its been done a long long time ago and has seen alot fo action since.

[FourBanger]

Yeah I edited my post to add it could be a very old refin.

[thebassman75]

Really interesting thread.. I'm going to read it in the morning to get the full lowdown.. Part of me is now thinking that if it was a refin then the neck pocket would look very different and the paint-stick mark would be gone or at least show signs of other paint..which it doesn't... One to sleep on me thinks

[miles'tone]

Originally Posted by thebassman75

Part of me is now thinking that if it was a refin then the neck pocket would look very different and the paint-stick mark would be gone or at least show signs of other paint..which it doesn't...

Makes sense to me too.
Hey you never know, you may have an all original pre-CBS there depending on when in '65 your bass was made!

[bakerbass]

This is fascinating. Subbed.

[thebassman75]

The neck stamp is dated 5th Feb 65. Most literature I can find just says 'Leo sold the company in early '65', so who knows. Its certainly close.. I'd never considered it like that. I wonder if there's any slightly more scientific process that I can undertake, like an x-ray or even black-lighting of some kind that would show me a little more. If it is a custom colour pre-CBS then God knows why someone carved a J-Pick-up in it!!

[thebassman75]

Just found some more info that says it was 4th Jan 1965 when CBS took over. However, I also found this from Jacksons Rare Guitar site.

Fender L-Series guitars from 1963 to late 1965
Serial number on the neckplate preceded with an "L". Even though CBS bought Fender in January 1965, these guitars are considered Pre-CBS. Keep in mind it is not unusual to find an "L" serial number on a late 1962 model.
L00001 to L20000 = 1963
L20001 to L55000 = 1964
L55001 to L99999 = 1965

Mine is L90122 - 5th Feb 1965

With the nail holes (for drying) all checking out, the bare wood in the neck pocket showing no signs of another colour (or shade of colour), the pots checking out, the paint in the pick-up routes being the same colour as under the pickguard and the pickguard shrinkage on the nitrate mint green guard, I'm now pretty convinced that what this is is a pre-CBS custom colour i.e. all the component parts are SO close to the change over date, they would've been being made whilst the ink was drying on the contract. The only explaination is that I have for the 2 different shades of colour is that the lighter shade is the first coat and the darker shade is the top coat discoloured with age. The neck-plate discolouration could've been either where the yellow top coat was applied and/or where the neck-plate hasn't fitted perfectly, allowing air/smoke/pollution to get in and under it over the years..

Any further thoughts?

[JimmyM]

I think you have a hot-ass bass, that's what I think!