Anybody else notice the sharp increase in Yamaha popularity and value?

[frankie5string]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

Perhaps Yamaha produces designs that have some advantage, but other than that, they're in precisely the same boat as everyone else is who farms out their production to the same distant plants.

It's interesting -- or perhaps depressing -- to me to see how people desperately struggle to justify their pitiful loyalties to "brands" that are little more than marketing fictions, never mind how much bandwidth is burned here in those efforts.

Wow, so pissy... It's a Yamaha. If you want more, pay for more. I'm sure Vinny Fodera will make whatever you want for a nice starting price of $5000... For the rest of us, these cookie-cutter basses work very well and even get us paid gigs.

Um... you're reading way too far into this. All of the brands that use the Cortex facilities work on the same principal. They send over their designs via software and pay the Cortex factory (or whatever they're called now) to produce the instrument to the tolerances they desire. If they want higher tolerances on the machining, they pay more. That's how MTD, Lakland, Yamaha, Charvel/Jackson, Samick, Cort, etc all work with those "identical" factories. Those factories are also largely automated to produce cookie-cutter stable guitars.

No, there are not little asian slaves manually labouring over these guitars. They're there to program the CNC machines.

There's actually a huge advantage to doing things that way. You get a consistent product, the precision you want and if anything goes wrong, you just swap out a neck or body at the loading dock when they hit the US/Canada and you're done.

That, and with everything being Plek'ed these days, it's really down to a science unless something is actually wrong with the body blank they cut and assembled which may not show up right after assembly.

I remember MTD having a bunch of spare necks and bodies sitting around in case a bass came in that was unable to be set up to spec.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

[BluesWalker]

I just purchased a used John Myung 6-string artist model (the first one with the single pickup). Incredible value, a great bass for about $700.

[ggvicviper]

Update: I have since purchased another RBX5, this one from 1987. There was nothing wrong with my original RBX5, I just didn't have the proper truss tool. Still, this one is red, and thus automatically better

Do Yamahas hold their value? Hell no! This bass was $190 from GC used.
Is the RBX awesome? You bet!

In conclusion, Yamaha is the best kept secret! Don't say they've been holding their value more or else it will ACTUALLY happen! ShhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

[Wallace320]

Yamaha is Yamaha

It's not necessarily (how could it be?) perfect and experienced a few ups and downs.

Yet for sure it's gettin' much more commercial exposure (availability thru Music shops/chains here and there) than just a lustre ago.

My personal experience (I started on Yamaha 20+ years ago and, thru many others, that very first bass, slightly modded and positively maintained, still got its playin' time in one of my bands) is that Yamaha was astonishing from late '80s till mid '90s then eventually lost some ground for nearly a decade (they adopted the policy to eliminate mid range models from each and every series, keepin' entry level and top notch's only... God knows why) now they're regainin' sumthin' as they rightfully deserve

Cheers,
Wallace

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by frankie5string

Um... you're reading way too far into this. All of the brands that use the Cortex facilities work on the same principal. They send over their designs via software and pay the Cortex factory (or whatever they're called now) to produce the instrument to the tolerances they desire. If they want higher tolerances on the machining, they pay more. That's how MTD, Lakland, Yamaha, Charvel/Jackson, Samick, Cort, etc all work with those "identical" factories. Those factories are also largely automated to produce cookie-cutter stable guitars.

No, there are not little asian slaves manually labouring over these guitars. They're there to program the CNC machines.

You're dead wrong about so much here, starting with not knowing the company is "Cor-Tek" and going downhill from there.

There is a lot of manual labor in these instruments. CNC does the basic shaping, cutting and indexing, but virtually everything else is done by humans.

The robotically-produced instrument is a myth.

There are lots of factory-tour pages out there. Find some and learn.

QC and production routine is broadly subject to contract, but if the contractor actually wants real QC worthy of the name, they usually undertake it themselves at domestic point of distribution. Interestingly, they still manage to blow it a lot, even then.

[frankie5string]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

You're dead wrong about so much here, starting with not knowing the company is "Cor-Tek" and going downhill from there.

There is a lot of manual labor in these instruments. CNC does the basic shaping, cutting and indexing, but virtually everything else is done by humans.

The robotically-produced instrument is a myth.

There are lots of factory-tour pages out there. Find some and learn.

Perhaps we have different standards for manual labour in these places. I do not consider lifting the cut instrument components off of one line and placing them on a paint line or assembly line to be finished "manual labour". Nor do I consider a quick manual actuation of a digitally controlled sander to smooth a neck to be manual labour. I call that "control work".

Perhaps the guys who set up the veneers on the tops get in there a bit more, but for all intents and purposes it's a computer controlled process.

I did see a video once of a guy spraying a burst onto a hollow-body guitar. Then a few years later I saw a video of a machine "bursting" a solid body guitar. Perhaps the more delicate instruments get a more human touch. I'm referring to the solid-body basses and guitars that get either solid colours, or get translucent colours or bursts.

...and yes, I have seen the process when the basses hit the US and go into a small work room with a few guys ready with fresh strings, body blanks and necks to set up or swap out whatever didn't "make the trip". Heck, when I purchased an MTD Z6 fretless, I actually met the guy in Toronto who did the final QC...

When I bought my two Yamahas I didn't meet the local QC guys but I probably could have if I wanted to make a nuisance of myself... ;-)

[MD]

I've been listing my BB404 on CL for several month. Not too popular, other than the "I'll give you $100.00 for it" crowd.
It's a decent bass though. Good weight, well made, and with some mods to the controls, is a gigging bass.

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by frankie5string

Perhaps we have different standards for manual labour in these places. I do not consider lifting the cut instrument components off of one line and placing them on a paint line or assembly line to be finished "manual labour". Nor do I consider a quick manual actuation of a digitally controlled sander to smooth a neck to be manual labour. I call that "control work".

You're still way, way of the mark. Production is simply not automated to the extent you suggest.

The Indonesia plant is probably the most technologically advanced factory I know of. They have a tour site page I've seen that's pretty detailed, and there's a lot of handwork and a lot of human labor involved at every stage.

Here, watch this.

Most Chinese mills are far less automated than that and some are positively Dickensian.

[Stealth]

Originally Posted by BluesWalker

I just purchased a used John Myung 6-string artist model (the first one with the single pickup). Incredible value, a great bass for about $700.

If you got the single-pickup one, that's the RBX-JM2. Still a brilliant instrument, that, and I've been GASing for one for ages. I miss the deep green finish from the RBX-6JM, though the flat silver is cool.

As I've often said in threads like these, I must be the only guy on Talkbass with a non-lemon RBX375, and in a country that usually gets the lowest-QC electronics equipment anyway.

[Showdown]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

When people bray about quality, the first thing they have to do is convince me they objectively understand what good build is actually about, and fully 95%+ of those here are more or less in the dark about that.

Tip: it probably isn't wise to insult 95% of the people here, especially in such a condescending way. What makes you so superior?

[Tvrtko]

I still need to see bad Yamaha bass. I am just glad that nobody is going to take their Fodera to the other side of the life. I might try to smuggle my BB300.

[MattyH]

Just got a 1978 BB1200 on Sunday. Awesome bass. Can't wait to gig it this weekend.

[NightTripper]

I hadn't even given Yamaha a thought until I found out that the awesome bass tone on Sir Paul's McCartney II album was a Yamaha BB1200. Great sound. I'd love to get my hands on one.

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by Showdown

Tip: it probably isn't wise to insult 95% of the people here, especially in such a condescending way.

Listen, I couldn't care less because it doesn't matter. If I'm wrong about the 95% they can get to work and demonstrate it, OK? I'll be thrilled.

There are a few people here who really know their stuff, but there aren't that many -- and almost all of them have withdrawn from the general discussions as a waste of time and too depressing because it's like beating your head against a wall trying to get through to the large majority of people here.

I'm here for the -5% who have quality data to impart or seriously seek it. The rest simply don't matter. They can't be helped, because they don't want to be.

I've been on these Internet discussions since around 1984 on alt.guitar and alt.guitar.bass on Usenet. Every year the level of seriousness about learning gets worse.

What makes you so superior?

"Superiority" isn't the issue. Understanding is the issue.

Working on instruments for over forty years, studying the industry hard and paying close, emotionally detached, analytical attention to it all will get you a lot of understanding.

None of it's rocket science. I could teach a reasonably normal person all he really needs to know about spot-assessing the build quality of a bass in an afternoon.

That's what always used to stump me. Why are these people that ineducable? If musicians were really as stupid as they appear about this stuff they couldn't survive a day without a nanny.

The problem is that they don't want to learn in any serious way. It's actually anathema to them. They don't want knowledge, they want magic. They certainly don't want homework.

Data is just death on magic and fantasy, and most of the people on gear forums are basically just living out their own private wank fantasies about being real, working musicians, and they'll never get beyond that, ever. Buying a real guitar is ultimately just a step up from air guitar.

When I finally got that, it was easy to let go of the 95%.

Instruments are nothing but light industrial product, like bathroom fixtures or basketball shoes. You make 'em right or you make 'em wrong. They're either good dollar values or they're not. They're the right tool for the job or they aren't. To a rational adult, they're not mystical totems that "speak to you." They're just stuff.

But to these people, they are magical. That's the appeal. They don't want reason, they want excitement. They don't want facts, they want GAS.

They don't want any facts to intrude on the satisfying delusions they willfully hold and slick marketing feeds and manipulates. That's more fun, and they can waste lots of time and money on magical accessories and magical aftermarket claptrap to further upholster their dreamworlds and have all these Facebook-grade discussions with other deluded fanboys about the awesummness of it all.

You give them a hard practical audit on this stuff like a contract engineer, an informed professional -- or maybe just someone with some deductive sense -- and they go ballistic. Their world shakes and threatens to crumble, and it's all YOUR fault, not theirs for being credulous nor the slick marketer's for conning them into believing a bunch of nonsense.

When I used to authenticate vintage gear -- which was usually blatantly faked-up or wrecked -- instead of being grateful to me for saving them from getting skinned alive by some grifter, they were always furious with me. Not the grifter. They desperately wanted to buy the lie and I ruined it for them. I was the bad guy.

I'm not in the business of enabling people that desperate to drink the Kool-Aid. Not then and not now.

If that bothers anybody, do me a favor and put me in your "ignore" file and proceed in darkness. Your loss.

[odin70]

Im never ever going to buy anything from Yamaha. I tried once...gave up. The most arrogant company in the world.

[Showdown]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

Listen, I couldn't care less because it doesn't matter. If I'm wrong about the 95% they can get to work and demonstrate it, OK? I'll be thrilled.

Why do you think any of us need to please you? Your condescension is stunning.

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by Showdown

Why do you think any of us need to please you?

You don't, but you also shouldn't give me a hard time about stuff unless you can make an actual coherent point with good data.

If for some reason someone cares that I may be misjudging his input, he should make a good point instead of going crying to some moderator that he didn't get "respect" when he was simply exposed as being ignorant and got his feelings bent.

Boy, does that get old!

The truth hurts and I can't help that. It's never personal with me. I just call them as I see them. If the shoe fits...y'know?

Your condescension is stunning.

It's not condescension, it's indifference.

Indifference is much better than exasperation. I'm just helpfully explaining how I got there.

[SactoBass]

I had a Yamaha back in the 70's. It was an Enduro.

[two fingers]

I'm just south of you OP, and I can honestly say they are pretty much rare around here. I haven't seen any other than entry-level listed on any NC CLs for a while now (with the exception of one guy in the Greensboro area who has had the same high-end early 2000s six string Yamaha bass listed for like a few grand for months now). A few mid-levels used to sell in the store I worked at in the late 90s and early 2000s, but every time a high-end or signature model came in, it sat around for months until the price dropped a lot.

Many are really nice. Construction and quality control has always been Yamaha's forte'. But they just don't stand out to me. I even used to sell their pianos. Now THOSE things are incredibly well-built. But, again, they just don't have anything tone-wise that blows me away.

You are correct in that players like Nathan East, Billy Sheehan etc. can make them cry. But they could probably do the same with any other bass made to their liking as well.

[Showdown]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

You don't, but you also shouldn't give me a hard time about stuff unless you can make an actual coherent point with good data.

If for some reason someone cares that I may be misjudging his input, he should make a good point instead of going crying to some moderator that he didn't get "respect" when he was simply exposed as being ignorant and got his feelings bent.

I didn't cry to a moderator. If this is something that happens to you often, you might start wondering why that is. I've already pointed out a likely reason.