Is a beat up 1973 Fender P Bass Worth $2399 if...

[f64]

Originally Posted by narud

imagine a thread like where people who are actually interested in vintage guitars who are aware of current market prices were commenting. id rather pay 2k for a 73 p than less money for dans allparts creations or a new fender with a 9.5 radius and posiflex rods in the neck.

+1 That pretty much is why I'm no longer a supporting member, removed all my pics, etc... way too many peeps making comments that are nonconstructive.

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Originally Posted by f64

+1 That pretty much is why I'm no longer a supporting member, removed all my pics, etc... way too many peeps making comments that are nonconstructive.

Funny, I probably won't renew my supporting membership exactly because of posts like narud's. How is it "nonconstructive" to not buy into the "vintage is wonderful" thing? Plenty of valid, logical points were made. I guess comments are only "constructive" when they support your position?

Like I said, there are plenty of us here who have experience with vintage Fenders, who are experienced players, and who fully understand the pricing dynamics behind the vintage market...who actually prefer a newer instrument. The basses I build for myself take what Leo got right and fix a few things he didn't:

• Giant heavy tuners are replaced with lightweight tuners to improve balance
• Graphite reinforced necks help prevent warps/twists
• Full shielding off all cavities with copper foil to eliminate noise
• Pickguard and body notches for easy access to trussrod
• On my P basses I now flip the pickup, so the pickup is closer to the neck on the brighter D and G strings. The result is more balanced even tone across strings.

In addition, I can have a neck customized to my taste. I don't like the vintage 7.25" radius, I don't like the vintage thickness, etc. And I much prefer the feel of raw wood on my necks.

For these reasons, I would never spend that type of cash on a vintage Fender.

[smcd]

I don't see a lot of ill-informed posts in this thread. Most feel that the bass the OP is interested in is overpriced. I don't think there's any doubt that it is. Do a quick search on ebay for similar basses in similar condition, and they come in WELL below $2,400. Is $2,400 a crazy high asking price? No. But you can find a similar bass in similar condition several hundred dollars lower than the asking price for the bass in question.

[Kevin aka Kebo]

Few things - This bass is not beat up, its played - big diff. This is priced spot on, mid point retail.. Its pure book value - If you get the VG price guide, I help write it and all numbers are based on actual sale prices.. Its fair, if you like it, buy it..

[mystic38]

well, for a comparative view on the vintage market.

I have just invested in a 2012 les paul standard premium plus with quilted maple desert burst top.. cost me $3000...

skip to the guitarist i jam with ..has a (i think itsa 79) les paul kalamazoo..worth about $3000... looks average, well worn, plays awful and has a so-so tone... So yup its worth the same as my guitar, but it isnt half what my guitar is (and thats his words).

So, no, i dont get it.. if you are a speculative collector great, but if you want a P bass to play, the chances of you getting something that is a better bang/buck in playability, looks and tone than a current us made fender are slim at best.

[king_biscuit]

Originally Posted by -=DanAtkinson=-

Funny, I probably won't renew my supporting membership exactly because of posts like narud's. How is it "nonconstructive" to not buy into the "vintage is wonderful" thing? Plenty of valid, logical points were made. I guess comments are only "constructive" when they support your position?


For these reasons, I would never spend that type of cash on a vintage Fender.

Dan, the OP just wanted to know if the vintage P in question was properly priced.

[narud]

Originally Posted by -=DanAtkinson=-

Funny, I probably won't renew my supporting membership exactly because of posts like narud's. How is it "nonconstructive" to not buy into the "vintage is wonderful" thing? Plenty of valid, logical points were made. I guess comments are only "constructive" when they support your position?

Like I said, there are plenty of us here who have experience with vintage Fenders, who are experienced players, and who fully understand the pricing dynamics behind the vintage market...who actually prefer a newer instrument. The basses I build for myself take what Leo got right and fix a few things he didn't:

• Giant heavy tuners are replaced with lightweight tuners to improve balance
• Graphite reinforced necks help prevent warps/twists
• Full shielding off all cavities with copper foil to eliminate noise
• Pickguard and body notches for easy access to trussrod
• On my P basses I now flip the pickup, so the pickup is closer to the neck on the brighter D and G strings. The result is more balanced even tone across strings.

In addition, I can have a neck customized to my taste. I don't like the vintage 7.25" radius, I don't like the vintage thickness, etc. And I much prefer the feel of raw wood on my necks.

For these reasons, I would never spend that type of cash on a vintage Fender.

the op asked a simple question. essentially checking what the market is on a 73 P that he liked. he didnt ask, "should i buy a vintage bass or get a new bass". it was a price check. yet it still turned into 70's basses are over rated, over priced, dcr variance on pickups is +/- 30%,that bass is garbage,etc. most of which is exaggerated, imagined,or bs.

[smcd]

Originally Posted by Kevin aka Kebo

This is priced spot on, mid point retail.. Its pure book value - If you get the VG price guide, I help write it and all numbers are based on actual sale prices.. Its fair, if you like it, buy it..

Sorry, but no way is this "mid-point retail". $2,400 is "absolute top end retail" for that P-bass. Never mind ebay, put "1973" into a search in the TB Classifieds and see what comes up. Similar basses that are in MUCH nicer condition for HUNDREDS less than the asking price of the bass in question.

I have always considered the VG price guide to be a total scam. It's a tool dealers use to jack up prices in the vintage market. Think about it - guitar dealers are on the honor system to submit actual sales prices to a publication they use to set their asking prices. I don't know about anyone else, but nearly all the guitar dealers I've ever met have been the shadiest of shady people. They make used car dealers look like boy scouts. One of the truly great things about ebay is that it's killed the credibility of the VG price guide.

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Originally Posted by king_biscuit

Dan, the OP just wanted to know if the vintage P in question was properly priced.

Understood. But the thread conversation evolved from there. Certainly not the first time that's happened on TB.

And "properly priced" means different things to different folks. Strictly from the standpoint of market pricing, the consensus is that the asking price is a tad high, but within the appropriate range. But the discussion turned to whether or not market pricing is actually sensible, based on instrument quality and comparison to newer & cheaper alternatives.

[DiabolusInMusic]

Originally Posted by f64

+1 That pretty much is why I'm no longer a supporting member, removed all my pics, etc... way too many peeps making comments that are nonconstructive.

So you don't enjoy it enough here to support it but you enjoy it enough here to regularly visit and post.

Well that comment was constructive wasn't it.

I support this site because I enjoy coming here and I am here regularly, wasting their bandwidth. Other views here should not change one's opinion of the site, unless it is the opinion of management that offends you.

Sorry to de-rail but I see WAY to man posts like this and they're starting to get old. Every thread that hits 5 pages that sin't a club always has somebody getting all righteous as to why they refust to support TB yet they only make themselves look foolish in my opinion.

And yes, I stand by my original assessment that the bass is overpriced. A guide is pointless when it is wrong and overpriced, SMCD put it pretty nicely, the book is for dealers to gauge. The market dictates value, not a book. Oh, and SMCD is one of those people who has views I disagree with before, I never once though about stopping supporting because of people like him.

I am off to renew my supporting membership... my 1 year is almost up. SUPPORT 81!!! I mean TALKBASS!!

[johng999]

Back to the original topic, a bass is worth what you are willing to pay for it. Some like older, classic things, some like new. As there are less of the classics available it will cost you more to buy a good one than a new one.
Look at classic cars - you will pay a pretty penny for a '65 Mustang if you want one. Newer cars are definitely superior in construction and drivability, but the '65 Mustang is magic to some. None of you are wrong - it gets down to pretty simple supply and demand.

[king_biscuit]

Originally Posted by johng999

Back to the original topic, a bass is worth what you are willing to pay for it. Some like older, classic things, some like new. As there are less of the classics available it will cost you more to buy a good one than a new one.
Look at classic cars - you will pay a pretty penny for a '65 Mustang if you want one. Newer cars are definitely superior in construction and drivability, but the '65 Mustang is magic to some. None of you are wrong - it gets down to pretty simple supply and demand.

Very well said!

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Originally Posted by narud

the op asked a simple question. essentially checking what the market is on a 73 P that he liked. he didnt ask, "should i buy a vintage bass or get a new bass". it was a price check. yet it still turned into 70's basses are over rated, over priced, dcr variance on pickups is +/- 30%,that bass is garbage,etc. most of which is exaggerated, imagined,or bs.

He asked if the bass is "worth" $2399. That's somewhat open ended. So people offered some healthy perspective on the real "worth" of a vintage Fender by going deeper than market price trends.

And I don't recall anyone saying "that bass is garbage". Maybe I missed it.

I do recall you saying: "id rather pay 2k for a 73 p than less money for dans allparts creations". Not only is that not constructive, it isn't even accurate.

[king_biscuit]

Originally Posted by -=DanAtkinson=-

So people offered some healthy perspective on the real "worth" of a vintage Fender by going deeper than market price trends.

Those type posts are generally not all that deep; more like I remember the 70s and Fenders sucked

[narud]

Originally Posted by -=DanAtkinson=-

He asked if the bass is "worth" $2399. That's somewhat open ended. So people offered some healthy perspective on the real "worth" of a vintage Fender by going deeper than market price trends.

And I don't recall anyone saying "that bass is garbage". Maybe I missed it.

I do recall you saying: "id rather pay 2k for a 73 p than less money for dans allparts creations". Not only is that not constructive, it isn't even accurate.

the question is only open ended if you have an axe to grind. most of the responses were pretty on topic until you came in and started with the not everything vintage is good routine and the allure of vintage has gone haywire. like it or not, there are people that prefer these guitars and dont view what changes you make or changes to the american standard line as "improvements".

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Originally Posted by narud

the question is only open ended if you have an axe to grind. most of the responses were pretty on topic until you came in and started with the not everything vintage is good routine and the allure of vintage has gone haywire. like it or not, there are people that prefer these guitars and dont view what changes you make or changes to the american standard line as "improvements".

So reducing neck dive isn't an improvement?
Reducing the risk of neck warps isn't an improvement?
Reducing hum and buzz isn't an improvement?

And god forbid I start the "not everything vintage is good" routine. How horrible of me. I forgot that everything vintage is holy, and perfect, and forged by the hands of mystical fairy elf angels.

[autodidact]

Hey how about that hockey

[f64]

Originally Posted by -=DanAtkinson=-

Funny, I probably won't renew my supporting membership exactly because of posts like narud's. How is it "nonconstructive" to not buy into the "vintage is wonderful" thing? Plenty of valid, logical points were made. I guess comments are only "constructive" when they support your position?

Like I said, there are plenty of us here who have experience with vintage Fenders, who are experienced players, and who fully understand the pricing dynamics behind the vintage market...who actually prefer a newer instrument. The basses I build for myself take what Leo got right and fix a few things he didn't:

• Giant heavy tuners are replaced with lightweight tuners to improve balance
• Graphite reinforced necks help prevent warps/twists
• Full shielding off all cavities with copper foil to eliminate noise
• Pickguard and body notches for easy access to trussrod
• On my P basses I now flip the pickup, so the pickup is closer to the neck on the brighter D and G strings. The result is more balanced even tone across strings.

In addition, I can have a neck customized to my taste. I don't like the vintage 7.25" radius, I don't like the vintage thickness, etc. And I much prefer the feel of raw wood on my necks.

For these reasons, I would never spend that type of cash on a vintage Fender.

Dan,
There's no arguing, yes it's easier to produce a good bass today than it was 45 years ago. Manufacturing consistency, wood drying techniques, availability of good electronics, etc... all make what we use better than most of what was available in the 60's and 70's. The quote by narud just stated that it's a shame those interested in vintage basses can't have an honest discussion without someone butting in without a comparison to today's pieces. He did then follow it with his personal opinion - but, that's his opinion. Your follow-up was your opinion. Hey, we're all entitled to one. I'd hate for everyone on this site to have the same opinion. That would be boring at best.
I posted because my 72 P is perfect for me. It may not be for someone else. I also play more current Fenders, Warwicks and Alembics. Each has it's own place and if they didn't meet my expectations I'd spin the piece. I've got some cherry old players and some perfect new ones.
The point of arguing value of old vs new won't be solved by us. Would I rather drive a new Mercedes vs an old one - hell yea. But there are a lot of people out there dumping significant cash on old ones. Why? They see value in the ability to own one and they want it - that's their opinion.

[narud]

Originally Posted by -=DanAtkinson=-

And god forbid I start the "not everything vintage is good" routine. How horrible of me. I forgot that everything vintage is holy, and perfect, and forged by the hands of mystical fairy elf angels.

this is what you dont seem to understand. people who like old fenders like them because they like them. not because theyve espoused some mythical set of virtues via fairy dust to them. its as simple as that. i dont have neck dive issues, noise issues, or warping issues that modern fenders or some "boutique"dont have.

let what you make stand for what it is. youre not going to change the minds of people who like old fenders to think youre making a better instrument. youre not. i dont see anywhere near the negativity posted about valenti's here, but i also dont see him thread crapping.

[taurus1]

Originally Posted by -=DanAtkinson=-

So reducing neck dive isn't an improvement?
Reducing the risk of neck warps isn't an improvement?
Reducing hum and buzz isn't an improvement?

And god forbid I start the "not everything vintage is good" routine. How horrible of me. I forgot that everything vintage is holy, and perfect, and forged by the hands of mystical fairy elf angels.

I can't believe your arrogance.
I have three 70's Precisions, none of them have neck dive, warped necks or hum and buzz.
one of the three is really heavy, but it's still perfectly balanced.
you actually believe you've improved Leo Fenders creation?
this forum blows my mind