Blind Testing of Stradivarius Violins-Reason and Emotion

[NickyBass]

Originally Posted by spvmhc

NickyBass-I was less interested in the actual differences among the instruments than in the perception of differences. And the certainty of the musicians even when reality was incongruent with their conclusions.

Yeah...I think a lot of the replies were geared more toward price/value though. For what it's worth, I read a followup with one of the violinists involved in the test, and she said that they never asked which was the Strad. She said the question was 'which do you prefer?'

[bikeplate]

I've owned many vintage Fenders and have a 61 P presently. I only dabble in them for the fun of it. It's my opinion my new boutique J's and P's sound and play worlds better

[Mulebagger]

Originally Posted by elgecko

How about a Modulus P bass?

That is a thing of beauty!

[nostatic]

I'm not clear on the methodology. In the photo caption it says they weren't able to tell "by sound alone". Which doesn't surprise me. I've always argued that for a musician there is far more involved in making music than just the final sound, and that since we are human, we cannot eliminate bias. The text of the article makes it sound like they might have played the instruments while wearing dark goggles. In which case I'd be fairly surprised if top level players could tell a difference between instruments based on feel - of course depends on a lot of factors.

Bottom line is that I still am very hesitant to make blanket decrees based on these "scientific" studies. Some things in life distill down to zeros and ones very well. Other things don't. I agree with the sentiment about being just intelligent enough to be dangerous. But that cuts both ways. I've lost count of the times I've seen data misinterpreted by people trying to "prove" a point.

Music is a mix of art and science, and humans just don't boil down to a mathematical description...

[Mulebagger]

I love it when people ask where did I get such a great sounding Fender. My usual reply is " from the Modulus store"



I had a similar experience as an earlier post where I went into GC and my buddy told me to close my eves and play the best bass in the store.

He put in my hand this pretty smoking 5 string. After a couple minutes I looked to see that I was playing a black active squire jazz. Under $300. It was an eye opening experience for sure.

[Mulebagger]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Music is a mix of art and science, and humans just don't boil down to a mathematical description...

You nailed it brother

[spvmhc]

Thanks to everyone who responded. I've read your comments with interest. Here are a few of my reflections.

lomo-your point is well-taken. And the "just intelligent enough to be dangerous to ourselves and other living things" observation is going to stay with me for a long time.

enjoi1018-the cautionary conclusion from the research is that the only way you can be certain you can tell your Modulus and a P bass is to do a blind test. The research doesn't mean there are no differences among instruments. It just suggests caution in assuming we can evaluate those differences readily and without bias.

WoodyG3-I looked at the reserach as showing more about the psychology of instrument preference. I certainly agree that there are differences and some basses are superior to others.

Dan Lenard-you're the bass salesman I would hope to encounter the next time I'm pining for another bass. Good for you!

zon6c-f You're a hero; you followed the data. And your wife encouraged you to buy the bass you chose! You're lucky as well.

NickyBass-I was less interested in the actual differences among the instruments than in the perception of differences. And the certainty of the musicians even when reality was incongruent with their conclusions.

ToleranceEJ-keep enjoying your Ibanez.

BassChuck and atomicdog-I liked your points. It is remarkable to be a part of a long musical tradition. As long as a musician sees that as the point of paying a premium for his/her instrument, it makes perfect sense to me.

Thanks again for your replies. It's been helpful to hear your thoughts

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by spvmhc

Here's a link to a careful study of violins:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptiveca...pick-the-strad

I suspect we bassists are like violinists; we have strong opinions even when we lack information.

By the way, this story has a positive aspect. If you can't afford a (insert the name of an expensive bass here), you may be doing just as well with the bass you have. Be grateful and enjoy making music with whatever instrument you own.

Yepper, I've suspected this for years. And why the tonewood debates never go anywhere .

The only bass that I, for example, can identify by make and model totally blind and any better than chance is the Rickenbacker 4001/3. It's sound is distinctive enough that it can actually be identified. I.e. in this song I did about 4 years ago I used my 4003 for a part of it, can you tell what part?:

https://soundcloud.com/unclejane/hoops

But for anything else, I can only make very broad distinctions like "sounds like a precision", "sounds kind of like a jazz" and that's about it.

Here's something I recorded on my iPhone this morning while nursing a headache. Any idea what bass it is just by the sound (ignore the note I wrote for the clip... D'oh!)?
https://soundcloud.com/unclejane/girard

So when it comes to what wood it's made out of etc. things break down pretty fast when most of the time folks can't even tell what kind of bass they're listening to period.

That's why I try only to buy ergonomics first, then generally in the ballpark of tone. And it turns out about $1200 or thereabouts is all I need to spend to sound as good as I can sound. Any more than that and it just looks different and I don't sound any better (and sometimes worse).

As for the violin piece, I have no idea what a Stradivarius sounds like. I actually preferred the sound of the new one, to tell the truth, the Strad. recording seemed to have a slightly sharper dentist-drill hiss on the top of the notes that hurt my ears more. Course, I have a lot of hearing damage, so that may have affected my opinion .

LS

[blindrabbit]

The point in the article that is it more about the person/player than the instrument resonates with me - the idea that the sound is in the fingers/hands more so than the "wood" really does make sense. I have some limited agreement with kjung in whatever instrument makes the player feel happy and comfortable will result in the best sound for them - that is absolutely true. However, I believe that many players would be shocked to discover how much their own happiness comes from their eyes if they were to try instruments blindfolded in the manner that at least one person recounted in this thread. Do some instruments feel better than others? Absolutely. Would most players agree on which instruments feel better in a blind comparison? Maybe, maybe not. Does feel and playability correlate at all with price? I actually think that this is the toughest one to judge. It certainly isn't a perfect or linear correlation, and I often wonder if there is any connection there at all.

[awilkie84]

Originally Posted by NickyBass

Yeah...I think a lot of the replies were geared more toward price/value though. For what it's worth, I read a followup with one of the violinists involved in the test, and she said that they never asked which was the Strad. She said the question was 'which do you prefer?'

That's a much better way to pose the question without inferring personal biases. i see no problem with them asking that question.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by blindrabbit

Does feel and playability correlate at all with price? I actually think that this is the toughest one to judge. It certainly isn't a perfect or linear correlation, and I often wonder if there is any connection there at all.

I can't find it now, but there's a vid on Youtube where a couple of guys did an admittedly not too well controlled blind judgment experiment with some Fender Telecasters. One was a squire, another an MIJ and another a really expensive CS tele. You could tell they were more or less guessing even though they'd actually played the instruments before. One guy got most of them right, and another missed all but one or two.

But they had the same trouble discriminating the el cheapo squire Tele from the Custom Shop version. The weight difference was the only thing and even at that they had trouble.

That was just them picking them up and going by feel - they didn't actually listen to how they sounded through an amp.

So I'm skeptical that additional cost gets you very much once you've identified things that you like in an instrument, like particular shapes, neck widths and pickup types.

I could prove that myself - let me play my Bunny for a little bit, then give me, like, a Fodera Matthew Garrison and let me play that. I can promise without ever even having played one, I'd sound more or less the same on both and who'd think I played or sounded better on which one would probably be controversial at best.

And most of the guys that insist they won't sound or play well until they get a Matt Garrison don't end up sounding or playing any better at the end of it all either.

LS

[Sid Fang]

Originally Posted by zon6c-f

...
Next visit to GC, I asked my wife to securely blindfold me, as I did want to be influenced by price or brand.

I asked G C guy to hand me bass after bass; volume and tone on full, whether single or dual PUP basses.

Suddenly I heard a celestial thunder, which I had never heard from any electric bass....

I appreciate your story and your attitude. But as someone who has to develop experimental methodologies as part of my day job, I feel I ought to comment on one slight flaw in yours. If you just go through basses, tone and volume on full, same amp, same amp settings, you're going to run into psychoacoustic effects like the old "louder sounds better" phenomenon.

If you're *really* going to do it as a blind test, you'd want to have someone normalize the amp output levels for each instrument before you played it - or even heard it. And of course "tone on full" is very different for a passive bass, where you're getting rid of a filter and getting as flat as you can, and an active EQ where full-on hypes the band, and the flat position is generally in the middle of the knob's excursion. I can imagine how the Zon's active EQ on full to hype the high-end, combined with the high partials coming off a graphite neck, could really stand out.

But, yeah, play and listen, before looking at price tags...

[zon6c-f]

SPVMHC...
Thanks... My wife is equally the "hero" for keeping me encouraged. I am thankfull and lucky.

We [SHE] were prepared to buy the MM 5ER I came in for, but I held my nose, picked the Squier off the wall and with exeption of overall feel; IDENTICAL to MM 5@$1700.

What a great birthday... 2009.

Now, my ZON is too preciouss to use in practical situations. Squier has become my main-go-to-bass. Wife also ordered top-of-line HSC for Squier. My Am Stand P is sooo jealous. Meanwhile my Rick and ZON grow more valuable..unused...LOL..

Squier, MM and Zon all have center detents on knobs, which I appreciate on Squier and expect /demand on higher cost instruments.

[coyote1]

To me, it goes like this: if the extra $$$ inspires the purchaser, if he/she digs the qualities (whatever they may or may not be) that come to mind upon playing such an instrument, that's wonderful. Personally I don't need to spend a lot. I try to find the "inexpensive AND good" option whenever possible.

I love double blind testing. I remember there was such a test of colas, and one participant demanded to see the cans. His comment? "How can I know which one I really like if I can't see the can?". lol

[blindrabbit]

Yeah, that's a great vid, and just one of the examples out there that come to mind when I think about these sorts of things.

Another thought that just came to mind - there are videos and informal comparison threads and the like out there along this vein, where people just can't tell any differences based upon cost and/or name appeal...and even though they drive a certain segment of the population up the wall, I have yet to see any comparison tests - BLIND comparison tests - where the results actually indicate a difference that can be detected. All that is ever heard back are comments like "if you have a well-enough trained ear then you'll notice" and the like, but never ever any testing that proves this point. I think that in and of itself is rather telling.

Originally Posted by unclejane

I can't find it now, but there's a vid on Youtube where a couple of guys did an admittedly not too well controlled blind judgment experiment with some Fender Telecasters. One was a squire, another an MIJ and another a really expensive CS tele. You could tell they were more or less guessing even though they'd actually played the instruments before. One guy got most of them right, and another missed all but one or two.

But they had the same trouble discriminating the el cheapo squire Tele from the Custom Shop version. The weight difference was the only thing and even at that they had trouble.

That was just them picking them up and going by feel - they didn't actually listen to how they sounded through an amp.

So I'm skeptical that additional cost gets you very much once you've identified things that you like in an instrument, like particular shapes, neck widths and pickup types.

I could prove that myself - let me play my Bunny for a little bit, then give me, like, a Fodera Matthew Garrison and let me play that. I can promise without ever even having played one, I'd sound more or less the same on both and who'd think I played or sounded better on which one would probably be controversial at best.

And most of the guys that insist they won't sound or play well until they get a Matt Garrison don't end up sounding or playing any better at the end of it all either.

LS

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by spvmhc

I suspect we bassists are like violinists; we have strong opinions even when we lack information.

Gee, y'think?

As I always say, "Opinions are what dumb people have instead of data," which is a more direct way of saying the same thing.

This violin business gets replayed and repeated all the time. The results never change. I've commented and expanded on them before.

Someone always posts it here and thinks it will do any good. It won't.

Musicians are stupid -- stupid in that they almost always resist rational thought and want to believe in magic -- even worse than "regular" people. They resist knowledge and will wittingly choose an interesting lie over a boring truth, even when it harms them, something that continues to astonish me (even after watching a lifetime of election cycles).

I've been on gear forums for a very long time. They all consist of at least 90% nonsense, either in terms of content or context. By "content" I mean simple factual error, asserting stuff that is demonstrably untrue. By "context" I mean obsessing about stuff that might even be true, but with no concept of its proportional importance, which is typically minuscule relative to what is being ignored in the larger scope of the issue at hand.

This never changes. It's contemptible.

I was mentioning this on a production forum about a month ago. Some "musician" was all butthurt over it and made a fairly long post that boiled down to, "Yes, you're right, but it's fun."

That's the level of ignorance a serious person is up against on gear forums. It's really horrible for some well-intentioned new player who spends a year or two absorbing all the bubba lore and then spends another couple of years realizing it's almost all bunk, and in the meantime has wasted a lot of time, effort and money he'll never get back on stuff that doesn't matter.

As I've always said, I'm here to educate and learn from the 1%-5% of the serious participants who try to proceed rationally and with common sense. The rest don't matter.

[Jim C]

I took my 1960 P to a rehearsal with some guys I never played with.
The bass was older than everyone in the room except me and sounded great.
I also have a 80's Tokai P that kills; the old worn necks do have a certain feel though.

I believe that tone is more affected by the player and the amp than the instrument assuming mid level and up basses.

[nostatic]

So anyone know the actual methodology of the tests? I can't discern it from the article.

Funny how some are so quick to embrace "the data" yet don't know exactly now it was produced.

[coyote1]

You're up against a fact of human existence, and that fact is: often, what we believe has enormous bearing on the quality of our lives, even if what we believe has no basis in fact.

Originally Posted by Bongolation

Gee, y'think?

As I always say, "Opinions are what dumb people have instead of data," which is a more direct way of saying the same thing.

This violin business gets replayed and repeated all the time. The results never change. I've commented and expanded on them before.

Someone always posts it here and thinks it will do any good. It won't.

Musicians are stupid -- stupid in that they almost always resist rational thought and want to believe in magic -- even worse than "regular" people. They resist knowledge and will wittingly choose an interesting lie over a boring truth, even when it harms them, something that continues to astonish me (even after watching a lifetime of election cycles).

I've been on gear forums for a very long time. They all consist of at least 90% nonsense, either in terms of content or context. By "content" I mean simple factual error, asserting stuff that is demonstrably untrue. By "context" I mean obsessing about stuff that might even be true, but with no concept of its proportional importance, which is typically minuscule relative to what is being ignored in the larger scope of the issue at hand.

This never changes. It's contemptible.

I was mentioning this on a production forum about a month ago. Some "musician" was all butthurt over it and made a fairly long post that boiled down to, "Yes, you're right, but it's fun."

That's the level of ignorance a serious person is up against on gear forums. It's really horrible for some well-intentioned new player who spends a year or two absorbing all the bubba lore and then spends another couple of years realizing it's almost all bunk, and in the meantime has wasted a lot of time, effort and money he'll never get back on stuff that doesn't matter.

As I've always said, I'm here to educate and learn from the 1%-5% of the serious participants who try to proceed rationally and with common sense. The rest don't matter.

Nowhere is that fact more relevant than in pursuit of the arts. Indeed, creation is nearly the antithesis of reality! The sculptor starts with a block of stone. He then uses his imagination to visualize something, and bring it forward from within that block.

So with music. Different instruments evoke different things within different people. And rationality has almost place in the creative endeavors. But good luck with your evangelism.

[chadds]

It's also about feel. This is something some of you mentioned.
My friend is 1st chair Violin wherever he goes. He plays a Strad. What's not quantifiable is the craftsmanship of the maker. This reveals itself to the musician as a "spirit" that distinguishes it from other instruments. My Ken Smith, now sold, felt nothing like a Tobias or Roscoe. How those notes respond when hit and develop is the special work of your luthier. Is this because of cost? Not exactly. Is the builder asking for certain pay to make this bass? Yup!