ESP vs LTD vs Edwards?

[Din Of Win]

So... i saw this pic again:



...and it started a whole internet tangent on the ESP brand.

Now i'm confused


What's the rundown between ESP and LTD?
Is LTD the American branch?
Why does the ESP stuff look awesome, while the LTD stuff mainly tries to hard to look metal?
Where does the Edwards brand fit in?
Is there a US Dealer for ESP/Edwards stuff?
Is there a quality difference between the three (like Squier/Fender or Epiphone/Gibson)?

[JustOpenYourMind]

ESP is the top of the line stuff, made in japan, most instruments are over 1000$

LTD is the cheap labor side of ESP, much like squier to fender or rockbass to warwick. I don't remember where they are made, korea maybe.

LTD are more in the mid-entry level with their instruments more in the 500$ range.

You will usually see an ESP model and an ltd copy at half the price.

[Burlington]

LTD still has some awesome guitars that sell for around $1000. The guitar players in my band both have LTD's, but they are not the cheap ones.

ESP is their higher end stuff.

Edwards is a non export branch of the company, they do not sell outside Japan. They have some super nice stuff.

Also, there is an Edwards for sale in the TB classifieds now. LTD and ESP both have basses of the same body shape. But there are some Edwards guitars that I have seen that so not share body shapes with LTD or ESP.

[Rumblefisher]

Crude analogy:

LTD: MIM Fender
ESP: MIA Fender
Edwards: MIJ Fender (if the Japanese shop was the Custom Shop)

[Din Of Win]

Awesome! Thanks for the analogies, haha!!!

Yeah... i had a TB'r offer me one of the Edwards RD knock offs... but i didn't have the $$$ at the time

[Wild_Cat]

Originally Posted by JustOpenYourMind

LTD are more in the mid-entry level with their instruments more in the 500$ range.

You will usually see an ESP model and an ltd copy at half the price.

While this is absolutely right for guitars, the bass side of ESP/LTD is more complicated than that.

As of now (reference: their website + some quick Thomann lookups), there are only three ESP bass series: the Vintage 4 (passive, 4-string P-bass with Seymour Duncan Basslines PJ pickups), the Surveyor (a more modern take on a P shape, with active electronics and P-MM EMG pickups, available in 4 and 5-string models) and the Phoenix II (a Thunderbird with EMGs). Now all three are high-end, Japan-made instruments that retail for around 1500 euros (and I sure wouldn't mind owning a Surveyor 5 if I was in the market for a modern-sounding instrument -- aesthetically, it has a nice, understated, dare I say Lakland-like quality).

LTDs, on the other hand, are made in Korea (I think -- it may have changed recently) and thus cheaper, but you'll notice that they offer a much wider range of instruments: 10 different series (including the aforementioned 3), at prices that scale from less than 200 euros to around 1000-1200. The looks also scale from trying-too-hard-to-be-metal (I'm a metalhead, but I just can't stand the look of pointy, clearly-impossible to play sitting down instruments), to all-around gorgeous (the spalted maple finish on the B41x's is yum!). Also, ESP/LTD's only 6-string basses are LTDs (the B and D series are available as 4, 5 and 6ers).



So make no mistake -- although "ESP" is a foolproof mark of price and/or quality, just because a bass says LTD on the headstock is in no way indicative of cheapness or crappiness. In that regard, I think ESP is closer to Ibanez than Fender or Warwick: ESP-branded basses are the equivalent of the Ibanez Prestige line (always top-notch and Japan-made, but which currently features only SRs, and ATKs starting this NAMM) and LTD is everything else from the entry-level meh to the higher-end of the middle-end, with a lot of possible "sidegrades" and series/options not available in the flagship line.

[Din Of Win]

Awesome write-up Wild_Cat!!!



I hope i didn't come off as 'bashing' LTD earlier!! I also know some great guitarists who play LTD guitars!

The pointy-looking-metalhead-basses remark was more tongue in cheek than a bash!

I love metalheads. Most i know wouldn't play any of the basses that are meant to LOOK metal... most play their Spectors/Warwicks/Fenders/Gibsons/Ibanezes that would be just as at home in church!! I just think it's silly marketing phenomenon with the metal 'look'.




Now, serious question again... I'm a long-time Martial Artist and instructor... people from my school go to Japan fairly often... how much cheaper would it be to get an ESP/Edwards IN Japan, as opposed to shipping one? At the very least, the Used market option would be better, i'm sure...

[Wild_Cat]

Originally Posted by Din Of Win

Awesome write-up Wild_Cat!!!

I hope i didn't come off as 'bashing' LTD earlier!! I also know some great guitarists who play LTD guitars!

The pointy-looking-metalhead-basses remark was more tongue in cheek than a bash!

Don't worry, it didn't come across as one -- I just took it as a chance to show off how horribly pedantic I truly am.

Funnily enough, although I don't own any ESP/LTD basses (but I have a thrash metal bassist friend who plays on an LTD F which sounds okay but could use a VT ), I actually have a slightly metal-looking ESP guitar. It's an ESP Viper, so an "SG meets Jazz" shape, but the metal part of the look is in the finish, which is a forest camouflage pattern. It allowed me to get the guitar at a very interesting price (people, it seems, weren't interested in buying a camo guitar). It's a good instrument, EMG pickups and plays really nice, although these past few years it's mostly been played by guitarist friends coming over to jam (not enough time... I'll get good at guitar once I'm awesome at bass).

[Riverrunsred]

LTD 400 series and above are Korean made, below 400 is Indonesian, at least with guitars. The lower series used to be MIC until last year I believe.

[Rusty Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Din Of Win

Awesome write-up Wild_Cat!!!
Now, serious question again... I'm a long-time Martial Artist and instructor... people from my school go to Japan fairly often... how much cheaper would it be to get an ESP/Edwards IN Japan, as opposed to shipping one? At the very least, the Used market option would be better, i'm sure...

You'll get a good idea of prices from looking at ishibashi.co.jp (major Japanese online music retailer) - there's a couple of nice used Edwards J-style basses on there for around the $7-800 mark (use xe.com to do the currency conversion).

http://www.ishibashi-webshop.jp/shop/e/eused32/

[El-Bob]

I would seriously put the better LTD stuff as being equal to MIA fender quality (although about half the price), with the actual ESP stuff as far higher than the MIA fender. Just my .02, take it for what it's worth.

[GM60466]

ESP quality is very good.

[shadowmac]

I've played all three (ESP, LTD and Edwards).

You can have the LTD stuff - I'm not a fan.

The Edwards line is outstanding - custom shop quality. I have a gorgeous 4 string currently in the TB classifieds - if it were a 5-er, I'd never part with it. Edwards is a Japanese only line and they have numerous signature models. I've played 2 Edwards basses and 4 guitars - all have been excellent. Unfortunately, you have to go through a Japanese dealer to get a new one.

The true ESP line is some really nice stuff, I've always been a big fan of the custom Horizon axes, but I find the Edwards to be comparable in quality for a far less expensive price tag.

[ModuMan]

I have two Edwards basses, both of which are versions of the Tetsuya signature models. They are good instruments. The Bardic has the same electronics and hardware as the ESP version so I'd love to know if the ESP is really $2k (or more) better? There are many more differences in the Buzz bass versions.

I also have one ESP bass, an AP-250 SL5. I don't believe there is an Edwards or LTD version. All I can say is that it really does feel like a top of the line instrument.

I got the Bardic new from Japan through a Yahoo auction (buy it now) and I got the AP used through the Ishibashi U-box. Importing a bass isn't cheap but it isn't really all that bad either.

[krafty]

ESP Japan does some beautiful work (see the Flying Angel guitar). The Bottom Bump line of basses are sexy, and if there was ever a Jazz bass I wanted, this is probably it:

[Sbociol]

I am a sucker for older ESPs...I currently own this Horizon 5:





and used to own this one:





amazing instruments for sure.

[darkstorm]

Last time I saw a endorsing musicians sheet for the LTD line it was very long. With more touring pros useing the LTD series rather then the american ESP line. Very well made instruments from their mid level and up. Bassically if its got 3 band active eq onboard its the mid level and up for the basses.

[jcburn]

Hey Sbociol - is that a Charvel Fusin 5 lurking in the background there?!

My take on these instruments having tried all three levels is this.

LTD to me feel like high end Ibanez. They are typically very well made and look and sound pretty good. Pricing is quite fair, and second hand a quite cheap.

Edwards is definitely a cut above this and I would rate the fit/finish as good if not a little better than USA Fender - and that is a fairly high standard. I have tried both an Edwards B series bass (not made any more - same body shape as LTD B series) and a few of the Fender style basses (J's and P's). they all had passive electronics with SD pickups (soapbars in the B, Antiquities in the J and P). Seriously good basses but second hand from say Ishibashi become quite cheap depending what import duties you may have to shell out. It is typically non export so you wont find a dealer outside of Japan for new stuff.

ESP stuff - man it is made to perfection. Have only tried the fender style stuff, plus in the early 2000's I also bought a used Horizon 5 and only moved it on due to narrow string spacing but it was 15 years old and flawless. For me I cant justify the extra $ for a rock and metal player but everything was perfect. Plus my guitarist has 3 standard ESP guitars and 2 absolute custom shop models made for him (that both cost around $8000 AUD!). All 5 of his guitars are just perfect - like I said for me I just cant justify the extra $ for the music I play.

Hope that helps defining the 3 brands.

[Sbociol]

Originally Posted by jcburn

Hey Sbociol - is that a Charvel Fusin 5 lurking in the background there?!

It is...good sight man!

[shadowmac]

Ooooooo...That purple Horizon is Smokin'!

Envy is rearing its ugly head!

Originally Posted by Sbociol

I am a sucker for older ESPs...I currently own this Horizon 5:





and used to own this one:





amazing instruments for sure.