Fender 'P's and 'J' Have Inherent Dead Spot?

martinmcfly · #1 08-01-2011, 06:23 PM

Both my '73 P Bass and 2004 CS 1964 Relic Jazz Bass seem to have a kinda dead spot on the 7th Fret of the G string. I was once told this was inherent of them. Is it? It's almost like it's being muted and when I play that D it lacks the sustain of all the other notes. It's gotten to the point where I play the Octave D on the D string instead, but only if I really need it to ring out. BTW, it I put on new strings it is still noticable. Thanks.

Rockmusician · #2 08-01-2011, 06:24 PM

I own several 1970s Fenders and have not noticed a problem with any of them.

I did have this problem with the 2 Musicman Stingrays I owned. The dead spot was around the 7th to 9th frets on the E string.

onosson · #3 08-01-2011, 06:31 PM

I've had this problem on about 20% of the Fenders I've owned. Usually between 4th-8th fret on the G string. Swapping necks changes the result entirely. I'm sure there are other remedies. I just tend to use it musically. If the D is dead on the G, I'll play a D there when I want a dead note - play it elsewhere when I want sustain.

**pacojas** · #4 08-01-2011, 06:31 PM

i had a notice-able one on my 78pbass. but, if they're inherent i haven't really noticed it on my other Fenders.

Rebmo · #5 08-01-2011, 06:41 PM

I played mine before I accepted delivery of it so I didn't notice one then, and haven't notices one since. I have 2 and neither have this issue?

Did yours have a dead spot when you checked it out before you bought it??

**StrangerDanger** · #6 08-01-2011, 06:44 PM

Inherent? No. Endemic? Maybe. Commonplace? Yes.

I would guess maybe 5% though, not 20%.

JohnL · #7 08-01-2011, 06:54 PM

It's not a 'Fender' issue...it is a bolt on neck issue. I don't know the scientifics of it, but I'm sure the guys in the Lutherie forum would have an answer for you. Probably an issue of varying density between 2 wood types bolted together. From what I've heard, neck-through construction pretty well eliminates the issue. And earlier posts are right...I have a Fender with no noticeable dead spots, but had an earlier one that did at the Eb on the G string.

selowitch · #8 08-01-2011, 07:02 PM

Some people say that thread inserts eliminate the dead spots. Others say that's hogwash.

Personally, I have no idea. My '08-'09 MIM Jazz Bass has thread inserts, and I don't notice a dead spot on the 7th fret of the G string, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

Basslice · #9 08-01-2011, 07:10 PM

Had the same problem with a Yamaha P/J bass. Don't know what the physics are, but there is some kind of dampening of that frequency. Probably a function of neck length, mass and body.

I only used to notice it at high stage volumes. Resonance.

wraub · #10 08-01-2011, 07:31 PM

@ Basslice- It's "Damping", not "Dampening". There should be no water involved here.

To topic: No dead spots in my 84 MIJ Squier jazz, nor in my 2 85 MIJ Ibanez Roadstar IIs.
All bolt-on necks, different woods in all.

However, I have heard this about bolt-ons, and especially Fenders, for just about forever. As usual, YMMV.

wraub

EagleMoon · #11 08-01-2011, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnL

It's not a 'Fender' issue...it is a bolt on neck issue. I don't know the scientifics of it, but I'm sure the guys in the Lutherie forum would have an answer for you. Probably an issue of varying density between 2 wood types bolted together. From what I've heard, neck-through construction pretty well eliminates the issue. And earlier posts are right...I have a Fender with no noticeable dead spots, but had an earlier one that did at the Eb on the G string.

Actually dead spots are not a bolt-on issue, they're a bass issue in general. Both neck-throughs and bolt-on's have them. Just to varying degrees and locations. I'm not sure how this Fender dead spot thing got started, other than they're a hugely popular brand and the amount of basses worldwide is way up there.

LAG · #12 08-01-2011, 08:43 PM

I owned a couple different Fender MIA fives in the past that also had dead spots on the B string. It's a Fender thang.

deeptubes · #13 08-01-2011, 09:01 PM

I have a Precision Elite II, a Precision Special Deluxe, and an HM Bass. I don't have any issues with dead spots. I've found that people with dead spots on their basses/gits tend to have set up issues, but that's not always the case.

JPSBassist · #14 08-01-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnL

It's not a 'Fender' issue...it is a bolt on neck issue. I don't know the scientifics of it, but I'm sure the guys in the Lutherie forum would have an answer for you. Probably an issue of varying density between 2 wood types bolted together. From what I've heard, neck-through construction pretty well eliminates the issue.

It's a systemic issue and can happen on neck-thru models as well.

From the best I've been able to understand it is that there are sympathetic frequencies that the string's vibration can trigger in the neck wood of the instrument (it's the same for electric guitars) that causes a dramatic drop off of vibration energy... meaning the string frequency excites the wood's frequency and the two cancel each other out. The end effect is no sustain (meaning the decay of the note is nearly instantaneous).

If you want to read the real scientific stuff it's here:

"At the first glance, an electric guitar or bass looks rather rigid. At the second glance, however, it proves as very flexible at particular frequences. A dead spot, defined by an abnormally fast decay of the fundamental tone, is caused by damping due to energy transfer from the string to the instrument body. For a well-balanced instrument the bridge proves as practically immobile, while the neck is flexible and exhibits resonances. Under certain circumstances, the string may excite a neck resonance with the result that the string vibration is additionally damped.

The mechanical conductance is a suitable indicator of the frequency-selective damping of the string supports. An in-situ measuring approach is suggested to ascertain the out-of-plane conductance on the neck. The combination of the curves as obtained at the nut and frets creates some kind of a landscape which represents a "fingerprint" of a guitar with respect to dead spots. An overlay chart based on the fundamental frequencies makes its evaluation easier as the higher the conductance for a string-fret combination is the more probable it is to find a dead spot. Thus, the fingerboard conductance of an electric guitar or bass can be simply measured and promises to be a key parameter for diagnosing and avoiding dead spots"

ASA/EAA/DAGA '99 - Dead Spots of Electric Guitars and Basses

My friend Stuart Spector says that the more rigid the neck, meaning the more immobile the neck, the less these frequencies affect the wood. Rock Maple with two carbon fiber (pultrusion) rods and a stainless truss rods when used in a neck-thru construction it minimizes the issues with resonant frequencies thus making the "dead spots" go away.

martinmcfly · #15 08-01-2011, 10:12 PM

Years ago I read there is some kind of clamp that you put on the headstock that supposed to give it the full sustain. I didn't pursue it cuz I don't like the idea of clamping something on the headstock.

stflbn · #16 08-01-2011, 10:18 PM

I had a Threaded insert bass that had a dead spot on the G-string. A Fat-Finger on the headstock solved the issue.

IMHO the issue seems more prevalent on 4 inline or 5 inline headstocks. I've not personally seen "as" many on 4+1 or 3+2 headstock... but that could just be luck.

Bongolation · #17 08-01-2011, 10:20 PM

In working on Fender P & J basses for over forty years, I don't think I've seen one that was completely free of this.

Yeah, I'd say it was inherent.

I have a good ear for them.

The degree to which it is a problem varies hugely, and under certain circumstances it can be almost eliminated on some basses by various methods, but it's still in there to some extent.

With some basses, it's incredibly bad.

All sorts of things can make it better or worse.

grendle · #18 08-01-2011, 10:30 PM

I've seen it too, but not on a multi piece neck. Stu is the man.

Gaolee · #19 08-01-2011, 11:07 PM

I haven't noticed one on the EB-2. I also haven't noticed one on the P-Bass. Lucky or deaf? Go with deaf. The Epi Thunderbird has a wicked dead spot which encompasses several frets on the G string around fret 5. Adjusting the neck helped a lot, but there's still an issue with it.

KeithAlanK · #20 08-02-2011, 03:00 AM

When Leo Fender was asked about this in an interview he put a small C-clamp on the headstock and the dead spot went away. (Try it yourself!)
So Leo knew about it, and probably decided that adding enough mass to the neck to eliminate ALL possibility of dead spots ruined playability, balance, and/or cosmetics.

Some people drill holes in the back of the headstock and insert rods of tungsten or steel.
In the '70s there was a product called FatHeads that was a plate of brass that went between the tuners and the headstock, on the back side. Also worked.

Learn to either avoid it by trying all notes before you buy, or live with it.

Also--not just Fenders suffer from this, it's just that there are SO many of them around and eventually the number of complaints is hard to ignore.
As a soundman I've dealt with tons of basses over the last 30 years and dead spots are more common than you might think.
Recently a Peavey Grind was almost inaudible at low F#, and while it's usually an issue on the G string it can happen anywhere on the neck.