Fender & SR Pup Location - determined by math or trial & error?

[Jim C]

We put a man on the moon 40 years ago and many of us continue to love and buy the same basic intrument from approx 50 years ago (passive) or 34 years ago (active).
Even the newer styles often times use the same physical position for pups.

Did Leo use math for this or was it simply trial and error.
The relocation of the J bridge pup in later years is also confusing although might have been driven by players wishes.

Lastly, did Spector flip the relative position of the split P pup to make the D & G strings have a fuller sound?

Have got to think that builders like Sadowsky, AC, Lakland, etc. aren't afraid to experiment with different locations and have found that Leo used the best location. Is this location accidental, basic physics, trial and error (from a guy who didn't play) or pure genius?

[Jim C]

Thought I'd bump this around again; any thoughts?

[SGD Lutherie]

When I designed my first basses I took the scale length and fret locations, and then divided up the space between the 24th fret and the bridge. I stuck my two pickups at locations based on that. As it turns out it's about the same locations as a Jazz bass.

But there's no reason you can't put a pickup anywhere you want. There used to be an old myth that they had to be at harmonic locations on the strings. But as soon as you fret a note, the harmonics move.

I've often put pickups on instruments because they looked better in that spot! But you know that closer to the neck is deeper and closer to the bridge is brighter.

One way to do it is to suspend the pickups upside down over the strings and move them while listening to the tone you get. There is no reason to keep copying the past, except that people have gotten in a rut, and expect to hear the same or similar tones as on the records they grew up with.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

But there's no reason you can't put a pickup anywhere you want. There used to be an old myth that they had to be at harmonic locations on the strings. But as soon as you fret a note, the harmonics move.

What he said. The sound of a pickup is brighter the nearer the bridge it is mounted, but there is no magic spot. When you fret a note at the 12th fret, the pickup is twice the distance from the bridge, proportionally speaking, as it is for an open string.

[Sketchy]

When I put the J-bass pickups on my precision, I placed the neck pickup where I did because it was as close to the location of the neck pickup on my fretless as I could get it (P-bass pickup is in the way of getting it perfectly where it is) and the bridge pickup where the strings went directly at the centre of each pair of poles (so it ended up being really close to the bridge).

Incidentally, I think the bass sounds really nice now.

[Jim C]

Thanks,
So it sounds like the pickup position is purely based on what sounds good and not some mathematical model.

I wonder if other builders:
A. Find that Leo's location are really the best sounding for most applications
B. Afraid to relocate fearing that the masses won't buy an instrument that doesn't look right
C. Just never tried anything else
Great idea about suspending the pup above the strings; sounds like the physical mounting in the body doesn't make much difference in the overall tone

[Caca de Kick]

Originally Posted by Jim C

Did Leo use math for this or was it simply trial and error.

I think the books written on Fender basses reported he used a body with a hollowed out channel to try pickups in every different position.

[KeithAlanK]

Don't forget that many players rest their thumbs on the pickups, so location is important for that aspect as well--when you get good tone from both the pickup and the finger location, that's certainly a sweet spot.

[Sartori]

Lots of people like the sounds of P-basses and Jazz basses. Of those two, I prefer the Jazz. I actually like reverse P pickup configuration better than the regular one, because that gives slightly more bite on the lower strings and more fullness on the upper ones.

Overall, though, I'm more fond of the 4001/4003/4004 pickup configuration(s) than the P or J.

[Fuzzbass]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

But there's no reason you can't put a pickup anywhere you want. There used to be an old myth that they had to be at harmonic locations on the strings. But as soon as you fret a note, the harmonics move.

This deserves to be re-repeated. The so-called "sweet spot" is nothing more than myth/marketing hype. Just go with the location that sounds best to you.

[metron]

I saw a video of Leo's workspace at G&L. He had a bass neck and bridge attached to a wooden plank with rows of mounting holes and a jack. It was clear that he moved pickups around by trial and error. I believe he did that at Fender as well. I think other builders make their clones with the same pickup position not because they believe it's perfect but because people are used to Fender and they will sell more that way.

For the 70s jazz pickup being moved closer to the bridge, I think that it was strictly a marketing type decision. The purpose was to have the pickup not be visible with the bridge cover on. I don't think that decision was made for any sonic purpose.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by metron

I think other builders make their clones...

And there's the problem right there! people just making the same basses over and over again and calling them their own design. I'm not sure how we got stuck in the "vintage" gear rut.

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

And there's the problem right there! people just making the same basses over and over again and calling them their own design. I'm not sure how we got stuck in the "vintage" gear rut.

I like some vintage style basses. My favorite is the 4001/4003 design, followed by the Jazz Bass.

But how many Fender clones do we really need? If I want a Fender, I'll buy one. Or, if I have the money, a Lakland (though their non-obviously-Fender-designs are quite intriguing).

I've often wished that other manufacturers would make their own designs, forge their own sound, rather than just making a slightly different looking P-bass.

[azzyrazzy]

There is a sweetspot! But it's YOUR sweetspot. It's the place where you comfortably place your hand, and it gives you just the right string tension and feel and sound you want, in one.

Some people have two or more of these sweetspots. The vary from bass to bass too. Good luck finding yours. Less obsessing, more playing

[MoireBass]

Originally Posted by metron

I saw a video of Leo's workspace at G&L. He had a bass neck and bridge attached to a wooden plank with rows of mounting holes and a jack. It was clear that he moved pickups around by trial and error.

I believe he did that at Fender as well.

Leo Fender wasn't a mechanical engineer or an electrical engineer, and he couldn't play guitar or any musical instrument. He was a very persistent tinkerer who listened to what his customers needed. He tried some things and then tried other things until he got it right. While the first P-basses have a certain charm, it was only after he changed the pickup in response to customer feedback that we got the version that changed the world.

Originally Posted by metron

I think other builders make their clones with the same pickup position not because they believe it's perfect but because people are used to Fender and they will sell more that way.

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

And there's the problem right there! people just making the same basses over and over again and calling them their own design. I'm not sure how we got stuck in the "vintage" gear rut.

Yeah! Leo Fender got an awful lot of things right first thing out of the box, but still, the Jazz bass design is 50 years old and the P-bass even older.

I think there's a certain inertia though, just what people are used to. This was the conversation when I pulled out my Warwick 5-string neck-thru Thumb bass in the studio:
Recording eng:"Ewww, what's that?"
Me:"It's a Warwick".
Him: "Don't you have a Fender?"
Me:"Not with me. This is a real good bass, it's made in Germany"
Him:"Well, could you borrow a Fender?"
Me:"Well, I kinda wrote most of my parts on this bass. It's a good bass, it'll be OK".
But it wasn't. He tried a number of things that all sounded like c**p until I finally convinced him to use the line out from my Pearce head, which was the best we got.

With a Sadowsky and probably a Lakland, they look and can get a sound enough like a Fender that maybe no-one will even notice and you'll have no difficulties. And if they do notice, you can say "It's like a Jazz, just do whatever you do for a Jazz and it'll sound OK".

Originally Posted by metron

For the 70s jazz pickup being moved closer to the bridge, I think that it was strictly a marketing type decision. The purpose was to have the pickup not be visible with the bridge cover on. I don't think that decision was made for any sonic purpose.

That's what I read. But it did have a sonic effect, and 70s bass players took advantage of the change.

[Sartori]

Moirebass, what sort of stuff were you doing in the studio? Session work for someone else, or like, your own band?

[MoireBass]

Originally Posted by Sartori

Moirebass, what sort of stuff were you doing in the studio? Session work for someone else, or like, your own band?

My own band, that I'd formed with a guitar synthesizer player that I'd collaborated with off-and-on for about ten years. It was all original material and not typical run-o-da-mill music. By then though, the guy who was our lead singer/most prolific songwriter had taken control of the band and none of the songs at this session were written by me.

I think if you're doing session work in most places, a Fender is pretty much expected and not optional, with maybe a few studios being more enlightened.

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by MoireBass

My own band, that I'd formed with a guitar synthesizer player that I'd collaborated with off-and-on for about ten years. It was all original material and not typical run-o-da-mill music. By then though, the guy who was our lead singer/most prolific songwriter had taken control of the band and none of the songs at this session were written by me.

I think if you're doing session work in most places, a Fender is pretty much expected and not optional, with maybe a few studios being more enlightened.

Well, I mean, there is a difference between session work and one's own band. If I'm in there as a session player, then the band I'm working for and the producer are the boss.

If it's my own band, I'm the boss, and I'll use whatever damn bass I like.

[EagleMoon]

I think it's funny that people are talking about the design being 35-50 years old. Like that's nothing in comparison to orchestral instruments. You don't usually hear people saying "oh let's redesign the cello!," though there have been instruments made for sure that expanded on the regular design. Oh one hand, if something works, why mess with it? On the other hand I can see why people would want to experiment. But if you've got a fretboard that does give you limited room to mess around with pickup position.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Jim C

Thanks,
So it sounds like the pickup position is purely based on what sounds good and not some mathematical model.

It could be both. There could be a mathematical reason why pickups sound good where they do.

I wonder if other builders:
A. Find that Leo's location are really the best sounding for most applications

What I find amusing are those that won't put pickups where Leo did, thus possibly avoiding the best sounding position for a particular bass.

IME (J bass guy here), the 70's position works well for me... just the right amount of neck and bridge pickup and it can be tweaked by raising or lowering either pickup. Now that Leo did the heavy lifting it's almost too easy if that's the basic vibe you seek.

I've played a lot of basses where pickup position was experimented with, from having two pickups both mounted as close as possible to the bridge (bad idea IME IMO) to just about everywhere else short of putting one behind the nut ala Percy Jones. Finding the sweetspot on a particular bass with one pickup is obviously much easier than trying to complement two or more pickups.

On my newest bass, while it is definitely an homage to a J bass, it's much more than that too. I started with humbuckers but intentionally lined up the outer coils in the 70's position and it not only works well when the coils are switched... it kills. Coincidence? Maybe. Then kick in the full humbuckers and it's party time.

B. Afraid to relocate fearing that the masses won't buy an instrument that doesn't look right

If it sounds right and does everything else well and it's reasonably priced for it's niche, it'll likely sell. There are simple things that can kill a sale... like placing a pickup at the end of the fingerboard where a slapper might need clear access. Don't want to sell to them? Keep putting pickups there.

C. Just never tried anything else

There truly is merit in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Nothing wrong with experimenting IMO, that's how some of the best solutions come to be.

Great idea about suspending the pup above the strings; sounds like the physical mounting in the body doesn't make much difference in the overall tone

Or just build a prototype... probably give a better representation of what you'll ultimately you'll end up with. One obvious drawback to above the string mounting is that you can't pluck in that position while testing. BTDT.