Fodera Club Part XVI

[roadkill2309]

Originally Posted by cire113

so that bass is being sold for 16,000.. jesus thats alof money!

I wonder how much it costs for parts and labor to make it...?

Probably $16,000.

[golltoppr]

Originally Posted by tommixx

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

T

+a big fat 1

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by cire113

so that bass is being sold for 16,000.. jesus thats alof money!

I wonder how much it costs for parts and labor to make it...?

People spend their money on foderas for a few reasons.
One of them is obvious.
They want a fodera instrument and have the 'spare' cash to afford one...or two or three or more as the case may be.
These prices exist because these people exist.
I think most of those people will not ask how much it costs to make one of these instruments.
Fair enough if you ask me.

[Johannes Oehl]

The parts may cost more than you think.

These are exceptionally beautiful woods that were collected and dreid over several years.

They need to pay for the whole staff that is working for F., for the shop and much more. No wonder they were having troubles until they decided to raise up the prices.

[nostatic]

Jason has provided plenty of details on Fodera costs and profit margins on other threads at TB (way more than I'd have patience to do). Suffice it to say that no one is getting rich - except for the people who buy and play their instruments, who get an incredibly rich experience playing them.

I had a jazz hit Thu night. Crammed into the corner of a restaurant making $50 plus dinner. I was completely burned out by crazy deadlines in my day job plus it was day 9 of 9 gigs in a row (actually two on Sunday and had Tue off). Second set I pulled my Yin Yang Deluxe out of the bag and did the set with it. I was home, and making music transcended my fatigue and not being able to move more than 3" without hitting the keyboard player's stand. None of that mattered.

Could I have found that with another instrument? Maybe, but I've certainly gone through enough other ones before sticking with this one. Would I drop $10K on another one? Umm, I have two on order, due this June, so I guess the answer is yes. Am I rich? Nope. I just prioritize making music in my budget and don't spend on other things. I've got a day job to pay the bills and gig enough to fund my gear. I don't do much else these days...no time. My choice and its the right thing for me at the right time. I'm not getting any younger and you're dead a long time.

At "the office" on Wed night:

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Jason has provided plenty of details on Fodera costs and profit margins on other threads at TB.

+1

[Baird6869]

Great post.

My company is in high tech manufacturing and our margins can be 80-90% and we are the biggest globally at what we do. If a competitor offered the same or better quality product for less $$$, we would be adjusting our pricing strategy.

Personally, I thought paying over $3000 for a bass was insane until a few months ago. That was when I played Foderas for the first time. I ordered one that week.

My Fodera isn't $16,000, in fact it was just over 1/3 of that new as it is one of the least expensive models. Did paying almost $6000 for a bass hurt? Nope. I am not rich, but compared to the dozens of other high end basses I have owned, it is worth that to me.

Drives me crazy when people post that they can buy a perfectly playable bass for X$ (usually $1000) but have limited or usually no experience with higher end basses such as Fodera.

I remember buying a pair of Prada shoes 6-7 years ago for $500 or so and a friend told me I was nuts. I still have and wear my Pradas and he is likely on his 10th pair of Aldos.

You generally get what you pay for!!!

Originally Posted by tommixx

How much of a profit margin IS fair for an instrument that requires the time and materials involved to build an instrument like this? 10%?? 20%?? 30%?? More?? What if YOU were the guy that owned the company? How much money would YOU expect to make for your time?

[Plunger]

Hey Todd(Nostatic)
Did Jason ever get back to you about the P/J PUPS working with the 17.5 string spacing on a 5 string? I was curious about that myself.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Plunger

Hey Todd(Nostatic)
Did Jason ever get back to you about the P/J PUPS working with the 17.5 string spacing on a 5 string? I was curious about that myself.

Yup. Bar magnets so any spacing is fine

[Plunger]

Thanks! That's good to know, although it adds to the number of options which I change every week or two
I really need to make the 4+ hour drive up to New York and just try a bunch out in person. Unfortunately there are no Fodera dealers anywhere near me here in Northern Virginia.

[Just Thumpin']

Sadly, any plated brass bridge will corrode over time from sweat if it's not wiped down regularly after use. And, even, then...at some point the finish will start to go. I wish that we had a way to develop plating material that is corrosion free, but that has eluded us thus far.

We do sell Titanium versions of our bridges, but they change the tone of the instruments subtly in a way that some love and some do not. They are also very, very expensive.

Regards,

Jason

Originally Posted by cire113

The bridge on my YYS is getting rusted a little;

IS there a replacement bridge i can buy that doesnt rust at all?


I notice victors bridge is like silver or platinum steel or something that reallyi doesnt rust and it seems way more durable then the bridge i have

[Just Thumpin']

All of the NAMM 2013 instruments were priced exactly as they would be if you ordered the exact same bass as a custom order. There is no "NAMM Premium." We decided for our 30th Anniversary that we should bring instruments that are spectacular in every sense of the word.

Without letting all of the cats out of the bag (as we will be revealing one NAMM Bass each Wednesday), some have woods that we have never used before and are extremely hard to find at the size / quality level that we demand (the Amboyna Burl top on this EII, for example). All have very, very special neck materials that we have had in the shop since the early 1990's, one is an absolute dead-on recreation of Victor Wooten's 1983 Monarch (including the preamp, bridge, oil finish, etc.), one is the first of six 2013 Yin Yang Deluxes and is built with a Brazilian RW / Satinwood YY top and Brazilian FB, and so on.

So, yes, they are expensive. That said, we did one small Club Fodera email blast about them several weeks ago and four of the six sold within two days of the email. There are only two of these remaining.

Again, there is no special premium other than what we would normally charge for the same spec and materials even though the person buying the bass is also getting a little piece of Fodera history. We built just 6 NAMM basses to celebrate our 30th Anniversary -- so we made them special.

Also, on a really fun note, for the first time in 5 years, Vinny is going to be joining us at the Show! We hope to see lots of you there and when you see these NAMM basses up close and personal, you may still think that they are expensive, but you will understand why. I promise!

Kindest regards,

Jason

Originally Posted by cire113

so that bass is being sold for 16,000.. jesus thats alof money!

I wonder how much it costs for parts and labor to make it...?

[Just Thumpin']

I really appreciate this post. And, as I have posted many times on TB in the past, yes, sadly the profit margins on your morning cup of coffee far exceeds our Company's margins...

Regards,

J

Originally Posted by tommixx

Well I don't want to seem insensitive and I apologize to you in advance as this is NOT directed entirely at you but I have read quite a few questions like this in quite a few threads here on TB over the years and I feel compelled to jump in here....

First of all HELL YES!!!....It IS a lot of money but let me ask you a question....

How much of a profit margin IS fair for an instrument that requires the time and materials involved to build an instrument like this? 10%?? 20%?? 30%?? More?? What if YOU were the guy that owned the company? How much money would YOU expect to make for your time? The TIME that Vinnie and his staff and guys like Roger Sadowsky and his staff put into building the instruments they do is TIME they will NEVER get back!! You and I are paying for someone else's TIME in addition to their experience and YEARS of expertise...That should NOT come cheap in my opinion. Trust me you get what you pay for. One guy's Squire may be fine for him but I GUARANTEE you that if you gave the same guy a Fodera (or ANY other high quality instrument for that matter) and let him play it side by side with the Squire he would see, feel, and hear the differences pretty quickly. If he had the resources available he might just decide that the higher priced instrument was worth it to him....or NOT! That is the beauty of a free market system! Buy what you want and play what you want but ultimately that is your choice. Should Vinnie lower his price and devalue his time just because someone doesn't think his time is as valuable as he thinks it is? Certainly not!

When I was the Chief Engineer at a very large Production Company in the 90's my employer asked me what I had to have to work for him. I replied $2,000 a day plus ALL expenses and he didn't bat an eye because he saw the value in my expertise and hired me on the spot. He then billed me out at $4,000 a day and discounted it to our clients at $3,000 per day (to create value for them...??) PLUS all my expenses. HE made $1,000 a day off of MY TIME and did not build or create ANYTHING for it!!! What did I care? As long as he paid my rate he could make anything he wanted on top of it because I agreed to accept it....

My point is this... A person's TIME is only as valuable as they think it is and the consumer either agrees or they don't. Most hand crafted products like these are FAR more than just the sum of their parts! The staff at Fodera and many other builders are experts at what they do. I guarantee that if you need surgery you want THE BEST surgeon you can find to do it right? If you were charged with a crime whether you did it or not you want the BEST attorney you can get right? Same thing applies here.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

At least MOST of the time...Sure there are many companies out there that are probably putting out crap but guys like Fodera and Sadowsky are building at the VERY TOP of the game....PERIOD! The cost of admission is steep to say the least but next time when considering the price of anything, consider the VALUE of what you are buying and the work it takes to make it not just the cost of the woods and electronics etc.

One must also factor into the equation the costs outside of the costs of the materials. I would be willing to bet that it takes a considerable amount of money to do business in New York. Throw in taxes, utilities, insurance, warehouse and workshop space, employees salaries, 401K contributions, Etc. etc. etc. and I doubt VERY seriously that a guy like Vinnie or Roger Sadowsky makes more than 8 to 12 percent NET on their cash flow. That means for every 1 MILLION dollars they take in they wind up with about $80,000 to $120,000 a year. That is ASSUMING that they have a MILLION $$ in Sales which is FAR more difficult than you think even at the prices they charge. Having worked in New York quite a bit myself I don't consider that to be that much money at all. The last time I was there I spent $700 in cab fair alone in 6 days!!!!

I have met Roger and most of his staff and I can tell you that he and everyone who works with him LOVES what they do and are very good at it. I have not had the pleasure of meeting the Fodera staff (but I hope to some day) but I have had numerous interactions with them and I can tell they genuinely enjoy what they do as well. I suspect there is not ONE person on either staff that does what they do for the money and I would also venture that they are at least as offended when someone assumes they are all making millions selling the instruments they do. I can only believe that they are making what they need to be comfortable and that is certainly not a crime. I tip my hat to ANYONE who can make a living doing what they love to do and making a business WORK and stay in business as long as these guys have. I would also be willing to bet there have been some TOUGH times for ALL of them and probably will be more tough times ahead before they clean up their work bench and close the door for the last time.

I for one hope that is a LONG way down the road and I wish them all the success and MONEY that they deserve for the art that they create! I personally have never questioned what someone charges for anything once I recognize the value in what they are doing and I choose VERY carefully who I buy from and for what reasons...For what it's worth I play Fodera, Sadowsky and Music Man Basses (another GREAT company and GREAT family owned business that I HIGHLY recommend at ANY price point) and probably always will after owning just about everything else out there. My Fodera gets about 100% of my playing time right now and I don't see that changing any time soon. I would love to have a lot of instruments from all of these guys if I could afford to but I really don't need to. The best tool for the job is always the best tool for the job and these guys have ALL been creating GREAT tools for a long time. I am happy to pay what they ask for the knowledge and skill it takes to create these tools, NOT simply the materials cost of the components they use....

On another note I played at a local open mic with some friends in Wilmington, NC this past Tuesday and had a couple of guys play my Fodera Yin Yang. It was the first Fodera they had ever had in their hands and both were skeptics due to the cost and PERCEIVED VALUE. BOTH of them said "I GET IT NOW" and they both want a Fodera now. It won't be easy for them but they are willing to start saving right now to get one. I also spoke to a local prodigy here the other day who has played my Fodera a few times and he told me that he had started a "Fodera Fund" to buy one. He said it would take him about 18 months to get the coin together but he was willing to make the sacrifice in order to make it happen. That is about the best endorsement I can give these guys.

just my $.02 and that and about $4 will get you a decent cup of coffee....By the way do you REALLY think it costs $4 for a cup of coffe? I wonder if the guys at Fodera drink coffee and if so how many cups at what cost? HHHHHmmmm maybe we should factor that into the cost structure as well....LOL!







Peace,

T

[Just Thumpin']

The materials cost a LOT more than people think. But let's just deconstruct this instrument -- the Emperor II that is going to NAMM. Some things that are not so obvious and fun to ponder...

1. When Vinny and I first became friends (when I was doing research for the book about Fodera I wanted to write -- well before I was a partner), one of the questions that I asked him was if there were any top woods that he is fond of that he never had a chance to build with. Amboyna Burl was one of the ones mentioned. Thus started a quest to find some of this material that had 5A figure, was old and dry enough to be used AND was large enough (ideally) to do a solid top. I started looking for the material in 2008 and only found it in late 2011. Conservatively I would say that it took me well over 40 hours over the years just to find these pieces. Forget how expensive the two pieces of wood we were able to find that fit the bill were, how do you value the three years of searching?

2. For the 2013 NAMM Basses we built up six really special neck billets made from Birdseye Maple, Flame Maple and South American Rosewood (stringers) that has all been in the shop since around 1992. Extremely dry, stable, resonant and stunning beautiful from a figure standpoint. Again, buying new material of this quality has gotten extremely expensive, but how do you value the carrying cost of having stored the material in our shop for 20 years? Actually for full disclosure, only five of these billets made their way into the NAMM basses because one of the NAMM basses is a recreation of VW's #37 Monarch and so we used the same woods that we used on Vic's bass for that NAMM bass. Yours truly will be using the remaining "NAMM Neck Billet" on an instrument of his own later this Winter...

3. The Line Inlay around the perimeter of the FB takes Vinny an entire day to do...

4. The B.E. Maple FB was cut from a piece of wood that we found stashed behind a machine that we were getting rid of. Vinny and Joey have no idea how long that piece has been there, but it was undoubtedly stashed because it was exceptional and Vin wanted to save it someplace safe...

So we really tried to make every NAMM bass for 2013 (our 30th Year) something with a story (or several) behind it. That is one of the ways that we have fun with our craft.

Regards,

Jason

Originally Posted by Johannes Oehl

The parts may cost more than you think.

These are exceptionally beautiful woods that were collected and dreid over several years.

They need to pay for the whole staff that is working for F., for the shop and much more. No wonder they were having troubles until they decided to raise up the prices.

[Lennard III.]

Originally Posted by Just Thumpin'

(when I was doing research for the book about Fodera I wanted to write)

You still defentely have to do this one day

[metallutca]

Originally Posted by Just Thumpin'

The materials cost a LOT more than people think. But let's just deconstruct this instrument -- the Emperor II that is going to NAMM. Some things that are not so obvious and fun to ponder...

1. When Vinny and I first became friends (when I was doing research for the book about Fodera I wanted to write -- well before I was a partner), one of the questions that I asked him was if there were any top woods that he is fond of that he never had a chance to build with. Amboyna Burl was one of the ones mentioned. Thus started a quest to find some of this material that had 5A figure, was old and dry enough to be used AND was large enough (ideally) to do a solid top. I started looking for the material in 2008 and only found it in late 2011. Conservatively I would say that it took me well over 40 hours over the years just to find these pieces. Forget how expensive the two pieces of wood we were able to find that fit the bill were, how do you value the three years of searching?

2. For the 2013 NAMM Basses we built up six really special neck billets made from Birdseye Maple, Flame Maple and South American Rosewood (stringers) that has all been in the shop since around 1992. Extremely dry, stable, resonant and stunning beautiful from a figure standpoint. Again, buying new material of this quality has gotten extremely expensive, but how do you value the carrying cost of having stored the material in our shop for 20 years? Actually for full disclosure, only five of these billets made their way into the NAMM basses because one of the NAMM basses is a recreation of VW's #37 Monarch and so we used the same woods that we used on Vic's bass for that NAMM bass. Yours truly will be using the remaining "NAMM Neck Billet" on an instrument of his own later this Winter...

3. The Line Inlay around the perimeter of the FB takes Vinny an entire day to do...

4. The B.E. Maple FB was cut from a piece of wood that we found stashed behind a machine that we were getting rid of. Vinny and Joey have no idea how long that piece has been there, but it was undoubtedly stashed because it was exceptional and Vin wanted to save it someplace safe...

So we really tried to make every NAMM bass for 2013 (our 30th Year) something with a story (or several) behind it. That is one of the ways that we have fun with our craft.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks for sharing this Jason! Love this post

[metallutca]

Jason,
Just wondering, does Fodera have a succession plan? If I'm not mistaken, Michael Tobias is training his son, Daniel to continue his legacy in MTD. What will happen after Vinny stops making basses?

[The Diaper Geni]

Originally Posted by nostatic

I had a jazz hit Thu night. Crammed into the corner of a restaurant making $50 plus dinner. I was completely burned out by crazy deadlines in my day job plus it was day 9 of 9 gigs in a row (actually two on Sunday and had Tue off). Second set I pulled my Yin Yang Deluxe out of the bag and did the set with it. I was home, and making music transcended my fatigue and not being able to move more than 3" without hitting the keyboard player's stand. None of that mattered.

Could I have found that with another instrument? Maybe, but I've certainly gone through enough other ones before sticking with this one. Would I drop $10K on another one? Umm, I have two on order, due this June, so I guess the answer is yes. Am I rich? Nope. I just prioritize making music in my budget and don't spend on other things. I've got a day job to pay the bills and gig enough to fund my gear. I don't do much else these days...no time. My choice and its the right thing for me at the right time. I'm not getting any younger and you're dead a long time.

You know, I wish folks would have to stop justifying the price(s) they pay for their bass(es).

I like this post. The consumer wants a product and feels good about the product and is willing to pay the price and in the end is happy with his/her purchase. What's the big deal??

The price is the price. Get over it. Sheesh....






Sorry. Late gig + Early morning + Semi-weak coffee + Aching lower back = Tired grumpy, middle-aged, mediocre bass player.








And stay off my lawn!!

[Johannes Oehl]

Originally Posted by metallutca

Thanks for sharing this Jason! Love this post

I agree 100% on this one.

[jmeyers44]

Hey Jason.
Will Victor get one of the replicas?