Fretless bass: Fret markings/lines or not?

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by Belka

There is quite a big difference between orchestral players and most bassists. For the vast majority of us, fretless is our 'second' instrument, what we pull out when we want a different flavor to the fretted.

That's a pretty poor excuse for sloppy playing.

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

That's a pretty poor excuse for sloppy playing.

Not many of us practice nearly as much as an orchestral player or have the academic background.

Plus, orchestral instruments have much different necks that allow for more muscle memory. Bass guitar necks are virtually featureless. Everyone claims that their hand can play without looking, but take your hand off the bass and fret the 5th fret. Then repeat taking your hand off and putting it back perfectly. Not so easy.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by Belka

I prefer lined fretless. It's going to get you closer to the note.

I don't agree. Do some experimentation on a fretless with a good tuner. I can tell you what I found out.

The first is that strings are not "ideal" or perfect. They do not behave as theoretical strings. For example if you try to intonate a 24 fret bass and check intonation at 12th and 24th fret they cannot be made to exactly agree because strings aren't perfect. By the same token lines placed where the frets would normally go cannot give you perfect notes. Go up and down your fretless neck using a credit card edge to exactly put the note on the lines and you'll see what I mean.

This led me to something I did on the last two basses I converted to fretless (replacing fingerboard with blank plank). After intonating to a chosen octave line (penciled on the board) I then found the "best position for the marker dots" using a tuner and credit card technique. Note that the true notes are NOT the same from string to string, just close. And then I would choose a "best approximation" to that note for the side marker position. I did this with the bass carefully tuned and using the exact same strings I intend to always use on that bass.

These "measured" markers to me work much better than the usual "theoretical" calculated fret positions because they were really measured for actual pitch. But as you can see, even with careful measurements there is STILL enough variations from position to position that you can't be completely accurate. You ears are ALWAYS needed for final adustments! No mechanical measurments can ever replace your ears!

[Belka]

Originally Posted by bassbenj

I don't agree. Do some experimentation on a fretless with a good tuner. I can tell you what I found out.

The first is that strings are not "ideal" or perfect. They do not behave as theoretical strings. For example if you try to intonate a 24 fret bass and check intonation at 12th and 24th fret they cannot be made to exactly agree because strings aren't perfect. By the same token lines placed where the frets would normally go cannot give you perfect notes. Go up and down your fretless neck using a credit card edge to exactly put the note on the lines and you'll see what I mean.

This led me to something I did on the last two basses I converted to fretless (replacing fingerboard with blank plank). After intonating to a chosen octave line (penciled on the board) I then found the "best position for the marker dots" using a tuner and credit card technique. Note that the true notes are NOT the same from string to string, just close. And then I would choose a "best approximation" to that note for the side marker position. I did this with the bass carefully tuned and using the exact same strings I intend to always use on that bass.

These "measured" markers to me work much better than the usual "theoretical" calculated fret positions because they were really measured for actual pitch. But as you can see, even with careful measurements there is STILL enough variations from position to position that you can't be completely accurate. You ears are ALWAYS needed for final adustments! No mechanical measurments can ever replace your ears!

That sounds like quite a bit of work. Sorry if I'm asking an obvious question but before doing all of this did you intonate the bridge and make sure the nut slots were properly cut for fretless?

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by Belka

That sounds like quite a bit of work. Sorry if I'm asking an obvious question but before doing all of this did you intonate the bridge and make sure the nut slots were properly cut for fretless?

http://www.garywillis.com/pages/bass...tonation4.html

Doesn't matter if you intonate the bridge. Not all of the notes are exactly where the line is.

[Belka]

Originally Posted by spade2you

http://www.garywillis.com/pages/bass...tonation4.html

Doesn't matter if you intonate the bridge. Not all of the notes are exactly where the line is.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But this is not about the lines being 'wrong'. The lines are right ( or at least 99% right for all you perfect pitch endowed even tempered wunderkinds), but you have to look at where you put your fingers to make sure you're in the right place depending on what part of the neck you're playing. Your fingers are not razor blades. They are round. Hence what Gary Willis is good enough to state. And it really does matter if your bridge is intonated or not..

Guys and gals, I'm not saying that your ears don't matter. Of course they do. But seriously, do you really think most fretless bassists, through their well trained ears, sound more in tune than they would on fretted instruments?

[khutch]

Originally Posted by Belka

There is quite a big difference between orchestral players and most bassists. For the vast majority of us, fretless is our 'second' instrument, what we pull out when we want a different flavor to the fretted. There are very few 'master' fretless bassists out there.

The difference is practice, practice, practice. I've heard children learning to play stringed instruments and they sound terrible, worse than me on a fretless bass. A few years later they do not ... probably because poor intonation is not tolerated in their world. I have to say that I am quite surprised to hear that it is tolerated in the fretless bass world. Whether by only a few or by most is not clear to me yet.

By the way, and I don't really understand this myself, but violinists seem to have less trouble with intonation than cellists and double bassists. I lived with a cellist once and when she practiced her intonation was dreadful.

I am not sure if this is true or not, if it is then perhaps muscle memory works better on a shorter scale. You can reach a lot of notes on a violin without moving your thumb. On the longer scale instruments you have to move your arm much sooner. Certainly there are plenty of orchestral cellists and double bassists with excellent intonation, again their jobs depend on it. I don't find any reason to criticize the intonation of a lot of jazz bassists either.

Also, you say you know that master violinists can do this but really, is your intonation so good that that you know they're pitch perfect? Seriously, The only people who can really hear that fretted instruments are slightly out of tune due to the whole non even tempered thing are those with perfect pitch.

If I came up to you on the street and asked you to sing a middle C then you would need perfect pitch to do it accurately and I would need perfect pitch to tell if you had done it. I do not have perfect pitch. When I listen carefully I can hear the tuning errors of the even tempered scale though because that only takes good relative pitch and anyone who can sing and many who play instruments have that. Someone above said the errors have to be 5 to 15 cents before you can hear them. Well, only 5 of the 12 notes on an even tempered chromatic scale are closer than 5 cents to the ideal value. The other 7 are more than 10 cents off and 3 are more than 15. I can hear this error very dramatically in one point in one of the Christmas songs I am practicing for church next week. It just sounds dreadful when I practice it alone and this is on a fretted bass. Yet play it in the mix with all the other even tempered instruments as I do with the rehearsal tape and it sounds fine. That is why the even tempered scale works, not because we cannot hear the errors. So no, you do not have to be any closer to perfect than the frets are to play in the mix but if you plan to solo much to showcase that fretless sound then all ears will be on you.

Seriously, I already find myself putting my finger down a little behind the fret line when I play a major third on the fretless bass. It makes sense, that major third is nearly 14 cents sharp. Minor thirds are almost 16 cents flat, btw.

I wouldn't worry about getting perfect intonation on fretless bass as you're probably never going to. Get halfway decent intonation and then cover up your clams with vibrato. That's what the best fretless players do.

You won't get what you don't try for. Vibrato can be your friend on long notes where an error will stand out like a sore thumb. But when you play rapid passages there is no time for vibrato, you have to be right. The best fretless players get it right. I strive to do likewise.

Ken

[Gabriel51]

I play either, I also play fretless 90% of the time.
I started playing fretless in 1983 and in about 2008 I tried my first lined fretless and had hell playing it because the top markers are like a fretted instrument, it bothered me so much that I sold the first one I had.
But now I can play either though I still wonder why the layout is the same as a fretted instrument, I guess it was because there were so many conversions that people wanted them that way and were used to it?
Playing the upper registers (2nd octave) is a little easier on a lined bass and any blank board player should agree.

Don't buy a fretless bass because it looks cool with a blank board, most fretted players do better starting on a lined board.
I play fretless because it is easier for me, (physically) it's also quieter, smoother and I like the sound. However you do have to pay a little more attention to what your doing.
It does have a learning curve but anyone can do it.

[whateverworks]

No body gets any points for not using lines and playing "almost" in tune. I don't rely on them constantly, but every now and then when jumping up the neck, they can't hurt.

[BassmanSBK]

Originally Posted by Wallace320

Unfortunately, side fret markers are moreoften than not placed in traditional fretted position (very center of the hypothetical fret, not where the actually note is supposed to be) so I experienced on my own that, unless you're a fretless pro, you'll need those lines to be precise...

Cheers,
Wallace

This problem is easily solved, the way upright players solve it--place your own side dots, based on the specific intonation of the set up (i.e., use a tuner or your ear). I find the white-out is perfect. It's easily removable (just use a pencil eraser), and you can place the dot exactly where the intonation is. The only drawback is that it wears, and you will have to periodically touch it up.

[nostatic]

If lines make it easier, use them. If lines confuse you, don't. It's as simple as that. No one here can come up with any truly factual reason for them being better or not - it is personal bias and personal experience.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by nostatic

If lines make it easier, use them. If lines confuse you, don't. It's as simple as that. No one here can come up with any truly factual reason for them being better or not - it is personal bias and personal experience.

Hey, don't go messing up this thread by boiling down to personal choice as a criteria!

[Jeff Scott]

BTW, no body gets any points for using lines and playing "almost" in tune.

[gleneg61]

I have an unmarked fretless 5 warwick thumb but I had side markers added to all the fret positions to help with my intonation but I've also found that although they are mathematically accurate as laid out, my fingertip meat & bass height viewing angle also affect visual perception of if you are on the "fret", slightly behind or even in front of the would be line so my ears & many hours of practice are the best guide. I just happen to like the unadorned look, but I have my cheat notes for back up.

[gumbynotpokey]

And I'll add one of my unanticipated revelations being new to fretless.....when the guitar is out of tune, and you're playing along, you DOUBT yourself and move to adjust, then look down at your left hand and see it's HIM not YOU. In other words, intonation is as intonation does, if you see my point (unless you've got a keyboard or synth in the band).

[KeithKlaxwell]

lines for best intonation i think, even if fretless should be about muscle memory and not guidelines. sure no lines looks cooler but if you want to play the most in tune whether beginner or advanced i recommend lines.

[KeithKlaxwell]

when i was younger i thought lines were lame but now i think they're a lot more practical. i have them on my stingray.

[Nev375]

Unlined with side dots.

It will give you enough of a visual clue for starting cold on your first note or handling position changes. After that you need to learn to use your ears if you intend to be a good fretless player.

Lines can only hinder that and tempt you to look.

[DrayMiles]

No. Maybe 1 dot on the side at the twelfth fret.

[Basstardus]

I just ordered myself a custom handmade Precision fretless w/ PJ pick ups and J neck with lines but no inlays. Fretboard is ebony and the lines will be gray colored, so in the dark the audience will never notice the lines, but I always will