Is this the golden age of bass selection and mass availability?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by unclejane

You say this as if being a successful musician wasn't always about as likely as winning the lottery. In fact, I've never known a time when that hasn't been true and that includes today.

I gigged for a while during the 80's and 90's; I'd estimate my total earnings from playing bass over that period was approx. $120. Even if I were a good player I wouldn't have expected that figure to be too much higher. Since I've resumed playing that figure has dropped to $0.0.

I'd be surprised if I heard other bass players complaining about missing the Land O' Plenty and $ bills flowing out of their cases that characterized the years gone by....

However, as far as the quality of equipment we have available for whatever we do, there's absolutely no comparison between today and the Good Ol' Days. We have orders of magnitude more and better choices than we used to. 30 years ago, all there was was the awful FMIC stuff which you couldn't give away if you wanted (and now is worth a mint) or the Rick 4001. If you were rich, you could start looking at a boutique like an Alembic, etc. But for the rest of us that was about all we had to work with.

Today, it's just like shooting ducks in a pond to find a really well-made, excellent sounding/playing bass from a whole constellation of companies. Including FMIC - today's FMIC P and J's are the best instruments they've ever made. So you can go buy a brand new Fender, take it home, set it up and play it without ever having to screw with it again. That's _never_ been possible before (witness the P and J upgrade market).

So we're definitely in the Good Ol' Days of equipment now. As professional players we're still as screwed as ever, but for bedroom warriors like myself, the toys available are endless in comparison.

LS

I disagree with you on the 'it has always been bad'. Absolutely not. In the 20+ years that I worked as a full time musician, especially from the late 70's through mid to late 80's, I typically performed 320-340 days per year, and made a decent living (paid for a nice apartment, a new car, good clothes, good gear, a bit of savings, and a full college education, including graduate school, with absolutely no dept. Even through the early 90's, a part time player could easily add $20,000 to his/her income doing heavy weekend work.

If you are talking about 'hitting it big', well of course. However, back then, you could make a nice living. The absolute pay per gig back then was about the same as today. When you dial in inflation, cost of healthcare, cost of college, etc. in real dollars, you could actually be at the low end of middle class and minimally raise a family as a highly skilled side man.

That being said, IMO you are correct that the hobby type players are keeping the instrument and other gear manufucatures (at least at the high end) afloat, and unfortunately that market is literally aging/dying out.

[Doner Designs]

I agree and even more it is a golden age for hobby builders. Decent quality cheap bodies and necks from many sources, numerous online parts suppliers, etc.

Also baby boomers who grew up with classic rockers are in a stage of life when they have a little more disposable income.

Few can afford 100+ cars like Jay Leno, but lots of of folks can afford to have multiple basses/guitars.

When the boomer demand tapers off there will probably be a lot of suppliers of both finished gear and parts going out of business.

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by Doner Designs

When the boomer demand tapers off there will probably be a lot of suppliers of both finished gear and parts going out of business.

Hard to say. The Baby Boomers had kids and some will inevitably have a disposable income.

[thebeerleader]

Yes! The golden age has arrived at last... .... Oh wait, I'm left handed. Damn! ... ... Sir, are you going to finish that sandwich?

[M.R. Ogle]

If the music industry was focused primarily on the baby boomers (following demographics and their disposable income), we'd see a lot of "looking back over their shoulder" trends, brand new instruments would be primarily re-warmed over designs from the 1950's and 60's, there would be re-issues out the butt, even going so far as to make brand new instruments look old, and a widespread trend of nostalgic thinking towards the days when instruments were "better", players were "better", music was "better"...

Oh, wait... I guess we're there.

[Ronbeast]

I think that the market will continue to exist for a long time after the baby boomers have stopped buying. A lot of us younger folks are gear whores as well, I currently have 8 basses, 2 electric guitars a acoustic, etc. and I have no intentions of slowing down yet, I still haven't finished college and I'm looking into my first custom.

It's not so much that the market will die, its more or less a case of the torch being handed to a new generation.

[MysticMichael]

I guess I'm not nearly so pessimistic about this whole "bass guitar thing" dying out. Seems to me we've heard this kind of thing before, yet "the scene" has survived - and even thrived - by reinventing itself.

There's a close and direct parallel with the history of rock 'n' roll itself. Some said it was on its way out...circa 1962/1963 - just before The Beatles hit it big. And we all know what happened after that...

Baby Boomers were initially driving it for the most part, true. But the Boomers, by & large, weren't the ones responsible for Eighties pop. Nor Nineties grunge. Nor the Aughts' "alternative rock". Nor really modern rock in general. It survives because the upcoming generations love it too...and they make it their own.

The electric bass will continue to evolve, or so I hope. But it is very much a part of the overall pop/rock music scene in general. And I'm still quite bullish on that...

MM

[smcd]

There's a Yamaha RBX270 on GC's used site for $125.00. That's the equivalent of $16.28 in 1960. You couldn't buy a broomstick, string and a washtub for that money back then.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

I guess I'm not nearly so pessimistic about this whole "bass guitar thing" dying out. Seems to me we've heard this kind of thing before, yet "the scene" has survived - and even thrived - by reinventing itself.

There's a close and direct parallel with the history of rock 'n' roll itself. Some said it was on its way out...circa 1962/1963 - just before The Beatles hit it big. And we all know what happened after that...

Baby Boomers were initially driving it for the most part, true. But the Boomers, by & large, weren't the ones responsible for Eighties pop. Nor Nineties grunge. Nor the Aughts' "alternative rock". Nor really modern rock in general. It survives because the upcoming generations love it too...and they make it their own.

The electric bass will continue to evolve, or so I hope. But it is very much a part of the overall pop/rock music scene in general. And I'm still quite bullish on that...

MM

Apples to oranges there. We aren't really talking about 'types of music' per se. Yes, many said 'rap was dead' 10 years ago, or 'rock is over'. Of course, they were wrong. However, the instrumentation shifts are pretty clear (i.e., the way pop music is created and delivered). Soul music long outlasted the horn section, and 'rock' music has outlasted the Marshall stack, etc.

The decline in kids taking music lessons on 'traditional instruments' (which is well documented) and the virtual disappearance of weeknight, moderately good paying gigs (making it almost impossible to make a living as a player) is a clear harbinger of doom per the topic being discussed.

IMO. I think a lot about this, given that I gig with many, amazingly talented young players, some of whom are actually thinking about the future. It is a very difficult job for me to mentor some of these 20 year olds that play better than I ever have, but yet have a very bleak future in front of them in the mid to long term unless they really think about a plan B. Tough to be young and on the back-end of a trend/category/product life cycle.

[spade2you]

Cheaper guitars and basses are better than they used to be. I started in the 90's. For $200, I got a used Les Paul copy with a HORRIBLY planed fingerboard and thus a poor fret job. In today's actual dollars, the same $200 will get you a much better guitar.

I'm a huge fan of factory direct luthiers. Guys like Cliff Bordwell and Chris Stambaugh are great builders and their prices are quite good.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by KJung

I disagree with you on the 'it has always been bad'. Absolutely not. In the 20+ years that I worked as a full time musician from the late 70's through mid to late 80's, I typically performed 320-340 days per year, and made a decent living (paid for a nice apartment, a new car, good clothes, good gear, a bit of savings, and a full college education, including graduate school, with absolutely no dept. Even through the early 90's, a part time player could easily add $20,000 to his/her income doing heavy weekend work.

You're still talking about a very eensy, teensy section of the overall music profession who can do this well. That's still far, far down in the noise of the gulf between that demographic and the rest of us out there pounding out Rush tunes in our bedrooms, or practicing with friends sharing an amp, etc.

True, the delta between groups of "size", say, .0000000001 and .00000001 is a couple orders of magnitude, but compared to the rest of us, "sized" 99.99999999.... You're still not describing much of a difference in terms of the likelihood of a good experience for us "99%"ers.

I've only met a couple of persons with your level of success in my lifetime; that figure hasn't gone up (or down) in the ensuing 30 years that I've been able to see.

If you are talking about 'hitting it big', well of course. However, back then, you could make a nice living. The absolute pay per gig back then was about the same as today. When you dial in inflation, cost of healthcare, cost of college, etc. in real dollars, you could actually be at the low end of middle class and minimally raise a family as a highly skilled side man.

See above for the analysis of your demographic . For the hitting it big, er, I'd put that "size" at, uh, .000000000000000... I'm going to run out of room on the page here for the zeros...
So no, I don't buy it. I don't see this dramatic drop in the musical profession that you do, especially when compared to the group of us who've never been successful and have very little hope of ever being so.

That being said, IMO you are correct that the hobby type players are keeping the instrument and other gear manufucatures (at least at the high end) afloat, and unfortunately that market is literally aging/dying out.

I actually disagree. In fact, the "one-man-band" dream (which was always mine) is much closer to being achievable nowadays than it was 30 years ago. In fact, in '79 or '80 I had zero choices for doing that and had to play with a guitarist and drummer. Today, however, I have loads of toys available to accompany my bedroom-shredding, a lot of it actually free off the internet.

I'm _almost_ at the point where I won't even have to learn to play the guitar. Thank goodness, having had to listen to myself try to play one of those things..

LS

[KJung]

Originally Posted by unclejane

You're still talking about a very eensy, teensy section of the overall music profession who can do this well. That's still far, far down in the noise of the gulf between that demographic and the rest of us out there pounding out Rush tunes in our bedrooms, or practicing with friends sharing an amp, etc.

True, the delta between groups of "size", say, .0000000001 and .00000001 is a couple orders of magnitude, but compared to the rest of us, "sized" 99.99999999.... You're still not describing much of a difference in terms of the likelihood of a good experience for us "99%"ers.

I've only met a couple of persons with your level of success in my lifetime; that figure hasn't gone up (or down) in the ensuing 30 years that I've been able to see.



See above for the analysis of your demographic . For the hitting it big, er, I'd put that "size" at, uh, .000000000000000... I'm going to run out of room on the page here for the zeros...
So no, I don't buy it. I don't see this dramatic drop in the musical profession that you do, especially when compared to the group of us who've never been successful and have very little hope of ever being so.



I actually disagree. In fact, the "one-man-band" dream (which was always mine) is much closer to being achievable nowadays than it was 30 years ago. In fact, in '79 or '80 I had zero choices for doing that and had to play with a guitarist and drummer. Today, however, I have loads of toys available to accompany my bedroom-shredding, a lot of it actually free off the internet.

I'm _almost_ at the point where I won't even have to learn to play the guitar. Thank goodness, having had to listen to myself try to play one of those things..

LS

We are both saying pretty much the same thing. Regardless if you gig or not, the industry of 'traditional rock instruments and amps' is pretty much driven by baby boomers, and we are all getting older, and that traditional 'live music played by 5 piece bands' is literally disappearing.

Regarding 'not knowing any bassists who actually make a living', I'd be careful a bit there. Virtually every bassist who I hang out with (dozens and dozens) either is or did make a living gigging. We do tend to 'hang with those who are most like us', so difficult to 'size the segments'. That being said, I agree that most of the industry volume is driven by the more 'hobby player'. My point is, that 'hobby player' is getting older and older. The old hobby player of the future will have a mutli-track recorder and a low end version of ProTools in his/her bedroom

Good discussion, and IMO, important for younger players contemplating a full time playing career to think about (and in the spirit of the thread, those who are thinking about getting in the 'business of music' in general).

[JxBass]

Originally Posted by KJung

IMO. I think a lot about this, given that I gig with many, amazingly talented young players, some of whom are actually thinking about the future. It is a very difficult job for me to mentor some of these 20 year olds that play better than I ever have, but yet have a very bleak future in front of them in the mid to long term unless they really think about a plan B. Tough to be young and on the back-end of a trend/category/product life cycle.

+1. My youngest son and his wife are pro musicians. My son is on his second North American tour - many, many one-nighters over a year and half. He's with a dozen talented 25-35 year old guys & gals, all with music degrees. His wife is doing pretty much the same. They've been together about 2-3 months out of the two-and-a-half years they've been married.

EDIT: and they don't have any good health insurance and don't earn enough to save anything.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by KJung

We are both saying pretty much the same thing. Regardless if you gig or not, the industry of 'traditional rock instruments and amps' is pretty much driven by baby boomers, and we are all getting older, and that traditional 'live music played by 5 piece bands' is literally disappearing.

Regarding 'not knowing any bassists who actually make a living', I'd be careful a bit there. Virtually every bassist who I hang out with (dozens and dozens) either is or did make a living gigging. We do tend to 'hang with those who are most like us', so difficult to 'size the segments'.

Precisely. That group _looks_ large to you because you're in it. And naturally, any changes within that group you're likely to see for the same reasons.

But again, taking the music profession as a whole and including us 99%'ers in the analysis, it's perfectly justified to say there _never was_ a Good Ol' Days. It's always been Bad Ol' Days for us. The supply of bass players so vastly vastly outstrips the demand for them that it's a statistical non-starter for us to try to make a living at playing bass. That's how it's always been and probably always will be.

This, BTW, is no reflection on the level of many of us in all areas of music. I've seen bedroom shredders, in fact loads and loads of them, able to play and compose music at extremely high levels of proficiency. And can't make a dime.

That being said, I agree that most of the industry volume is driven by the more 'hobby player'. My point is, that 'hobby player' is getting older and older. The old hobby player of the future will have a mutli-track recorder and a low end version of ProTools in his/her bedroom

Good discussion, and IMO, important for younger players contemplating a full time playing career to think about (and in the spirit of the thread, those who are thinking about getting in the 'business of music' in general).

Nah, that's just because we're old now . When I started in '79 I thought exactly the same thing - who are all these old dudes playing BB King tunes down at the clubs? I'm never going to get chicks doing this... maybe I should try the guitar... etc.

The latter did turn out to be true and in fact now I'm one of those old dudes who pounds out Steve Vai's "Answers" in his living room on his relic'ed G&L fretless. With no chicks or musical income in sight.

So yeah it's all just a matter of perspective

LS

[smcd]

Originally Posted by KJung

Virtually every bassist who I hang out with (dozens and dozens) either is or did make a living gigging. We do tend to 'hang with those who are most like us', so difficult to 'size the segments'.

Through playing and working the door at clubs, I'm friends/acquainted with countless dozens of musicians. I can't think of a single one that makes a living gigging today. I know one guy who barely gets by playing gigs and giving lessons, but it's the lessons that keep him afloat.

It's interesting that cover charges at bars and clubs are still at the price they were 20 years ago. Though tickets for arena concerts or shows at places like the House of Blues have gone up with inflation.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by JxBass

+1. My youngest son and his wife are pro musicians. My son is on his second North American tour - many, many one-nighters over a year and half. He's with a dozen talented 25-35 year old guys & gals, all with music degrees. His wife is doing pretty much the same. They've been together about 2-3 months out of the two-and-a-half years they've been married.

EDIT: and they don't have any good health insurance and don't earn enough to save anything.

The sad part is that there are JUST as many amazing talents out there, just less of a 'professional' career track to turn that talent into at least a minimal living.

That being said, it is great that the are doing it while they can (versus thinking 'what if' for the rest of their lives). I hope, though, that they at least have a plan B in their back pocket for their 30's and beyond.

The other point you make is a really tough one... the fact that you almost HAVE to play on the road to be at least somewhat of a pro player. I had a HARSH wake-up call when I was gigging full time. I became very good friends with a wonderful piano player who was on what we called the 'Holiday Inn' circuit back in the day (year after year of 3-4 week contracts in different hotel lounges within a given region... you would live in the hotel, gig 6 nights a week for a few weeks and then move to the next town). The pay was actually decent back then, and you could 'make it' since you didn't need a house.

Anyway, to the point, I visited him and his family when they were gigging a hotel in my town, and I went to their room. It was the typical hotel room, and they had the baby crib in the corner, and a hot plate that they used to heat dinner.

As a young single guy back then who was dating waitresses and having a total blast, making more money than most of my peers working crap day gigs to put themselves through college, that was a real shock. It was like 'wow, so this is success'. I studied a LOT harder after that.

[M.R. Ogle]

Great discussion!
Lots of different angles being thoughtfully and intelligently expressed.

But as to the original question: Is this the Golden Age for bass selection and availability? YES! You can get more stuff, wider variety, better overall quality for cheaper than ever. May even get cheaper still.

Is this "Golden Age" for being a musician? As a bedroom hobbyist, yes. As a paid professional, no way!

Is this the "Peak" for the bass guitar as an instrument in modern music? Probably, or we're close to it. Kids make music on touch-screens now. Sample, synth, cut and paste.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by smcd

Through playing and working the door at clubs, I'm friends/acquainted with countless dozens of musicians. I can't think of a single one that makes a living gigging today. I know one guy who barely gets by playing gigs and giving lessons, but it's the lessons that keep him afloat.

It's interesting that cover charges at bars and clubs are still at the price they were 20 years ago. Though tickets for arena concerts or shows at places like the House of Blues have gone up with inflation.

+1 Not like it used to be at all, and the people who are making a living are mostly not involved in the club scene, which as you say, pays virtually nothing, and mostly only has music on Friday and Saturdays, when the pro's are playing privates for at least moderately decent pay.

To put this in perspective, when I was doing the many multi-year 6 night a week contract gigs, you got paid $80 a night, plus a good meal. That was in the late 70's through mid 80's, when a GOOD apartment with utilities included was around $250 a month, and health care was $50 a semester if you were in school. That $80 a night is probably about $300 a night in today's dollars, so you can do the math. Combine that with the fact that all those 6 night a week gigs are basically on-off one nighters now, there you go.

*Note: Back then, privates paid between $150 and $200 if you could play and were doing higher end gigs. That pay is not that much different today (just to keep up with inflation, that would be more like $600 a gig or whatever).

[Ronbeast]

I can understand what you guys are saying about us young folks not really having the option of being able to make a sold living playing the music we love. I'm only 20 years old and I've got people who are 3 times my age asking me to play in bands with them, but in the end, that's not going to pay the bills.

I decided against music school, and instead chose to do an engineering degree. It sucks to put music on the backburner, but a steady paycheck will be better than $100 a gig with my weekend warrior buddies... I guess that's just the way life is.

-Ron

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Ronbeast

I can understand what you guys are saying about us young folks not really having the option of being able to make a sold living playing the music we love. I'm only 20 years old and I've got people who are 3 times my age asking me to play in bands with them, but in the end, that's not going to pay the bills.

I decided against music school, and instead chose to do an engineering degree. It sucks to put music on the backburner, but a steady paycheck will be better than $100 a gig with my weekend warrior buddies... I guess that's just the way life is.

-Ron

To be slightly less of a downer than I've been over the past two pages of this interesting thread, GOOD FOR YOU. And, remember, you can still be a killer player and gig weekends. If you are disciplined, there is plenty time to grow and maintain 'pro chops and ears' and work full time or go to school full time.

It is kind of like the silly posts of 'get off Talkbass and practice'. Well, it is amazing if you cut out dumb TV, laying about, drinking too much, etc. how much free time you can have to develop your craft, gig, and maybe post too much on Talkbass, and have a full time career to boot!

Don't give up the love of playing, and don't think you can't compete at a VERY high level for at least local casual gigs

PS When I went through business school, and subsequent degree programs, I took as many theory courses as I could as electives, and took private lessons (every once in a while) from the same teachers that were teaching the full time music students. Lots of ways to 'stay in it' at a relatively high level and still get that engineering degree!