Is this the golden age of bass selection and mass availability?

[smcd]

Originally Posted by bmc

So far, this thread has been very USA centric. I don't see the USA as the benchmark for market growth. Asian economies are growing and kids are buying up gear like crazy. That's where the growth is.

Asian kids aren't listening to rock and roll. Not only that, but $1,500 to an Asian kid is close to a year's salary.

I've been selling gear online for many years now. As I think back, not only have I never shipped a guitar to Asia, but I never even fielded a question from an Asian customer (excepting Japan).

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by unclejane

I gigged for a while during the 80's and 90's; I'd estimate my total earnings from playing bass over that period was approx. $120. Even if I were a good player I wouldn't have expected that figure to be too much higher. Since I've resumed playing that figure has dropped to $0.0.

Totally puts your posts into context - I KNEW you were never a gigging musician of any substance...


- georgestrings

[Kryptos]

Originally Posted by smcd

Asian kids aren't listening to rock and roll. Not only that, but $1,500 to an Asian kid is close to a year's salary.

I've been selling gear online for many years now. As I think back, not only have I never shipped a guitar to Asia, but I never even fielded a question from an Asian customer (excepting Japan).

You could not be more wrong. Image below is a Gibson store in Shanghai:



AAPL sales in China alone were $7.9 billion USD in fiscal 2012, in June AAPL rolled out iTunes n a dozen territories, including Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and the Philippines.

Fender has 16 showcase dealers in Japan.

[spade2you]

There's a dude on an acoustic guitar forum that I frequent that has MULTIPLE $20k+ acoustics in the Philippines.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by smcd

Asian kids aren't listening to rock and roll. Not only that, but $1,500 to an Asian kid is close to a year's salary.

I've been selling gear online for many years now. As I think back, not only have I never shipped a guitar to Asia, but I never even fielded a question from an Asian customer (excepting Japan).

There is a lot of music that can be done with a guitar and a bass you know ... and I'm sure they don't give a cr*p about USA's music but some of our band do very well there. Like Dream Theater.

But they do their own thing and sometime I find them way more creative than the USA in the music departement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xJudZZ3S70

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by georgestrings

Totally puts your posts into context - I KNEW you were never a gigging musician of any substance...


- georgestrings

Well, $120 worth of substance, anyway.

LS

[bmc]

Originally Posted by smcd

Asian kids aren't listening to rock and roll. Not only that, but $1,500 to an Asian kid is close to a year's salary.

I've been selling gear online for many years now. As I think back, not only have I never shipped a guitar to Asia, but I never even fielded a question from an Asian customer (excepting Japan).

Live music on the waterfront in Hong Kong:

http://youtu.be/bnQjd7pU9bU

Wrong on the Asian front. Completely wrong, to the point that I am shocked you would post that. It would like a retailer from the German side of Switzerland saying that Americans don't listen to folk music because he never got an inquiry to buy gear.

I gigged quite a bit in the Middle East. Arab kids are buying gear and putting rock bands together. I had two local Arab rock bands open for us back in 1999. Go to India and check out the guitar shops.

The biggest music store I have been to is in Seoul, Korea. It's the size of a typical IKEA. Check it out:

http://youtu.be/TZ3dejzXNi0

Here's a shop in Singapore:

http://youtu.be/QPLku63ORH4

Here' a music store in Manila:

http://youtu.be/hK7I3eCZUes

With stores like that, why would they contact you?

With all due respect, I can't believe you suggest something like that.

Are you aware that GM sells more cars in China than in the USA? Are you aware that China is building 65 new airports for commercial airline travel that will open by 2020. According to the president of Ford, who I saw interviewed on Charlie Rose last year, in Shanghai alone, consumers are buying 2,000 cars per week.

$1,500 salaries? You need to catch up on what's going on in the world. The future growth is not in the USA.

To the OP, I believe that the explosion in new gear at competitive pricing is going to sky rocket. Sales to the USA will remain strong, but I have a hunch that it will not be the strongest market.

I could be wrong. I have been in the past. Just ask my wife.

[bmc]

Originally Posted by BrandenSteele

SUPPORT LOCAL BUSINESS

Good for you Brandon. As much an online shops have great pricing, I need to try basses and guitars before buying. If we continue to buy online, we help local shops close down. I bit the bullet last April and bought an acoustic from a local shop, knowing I am paying $100 more than from Thomann, a massive online retailer in Germany serving all of Europe. But, if something went wrong with it, I wasn't excited about boxing it up and shipping it. Plus, I want to know that in five years from now, my local shop is going to be there for me.

[savofenno]

Originally Posted by smcd

Asian kids aren't listening to rock and roll. Not only that, but $1,500 to an Asian kid is close to a year's salary.

I've been selling gear online for many years now. As I think back, not only have I never shipped a guitar to Asia, but I never even fielded a question from an Asian customer (excepting Japan).

I must say you are totally wrong. At least Japanese and Koreans are into rock since 60`s, today more than western kids. Rap and synth does not have as big following at all.
I know scene in Japan best, they are equally into classic rock, metal and their own styles, of which think Visual Key and post styles of it are world leading, and giving impact to west too.
T.ex listen to Chage & Aska, they do classic rock, you will get it quickly. I am 65, raised with Elvis, Shadows, Ventures, Beatles, Hendrix, Buffalo Springfield, Beach Boys...list goes on and on, but now i think avantgarde of rock has it`s place in Japan!

...dare i say income level in Japan & South Korea is higher than in America?

[Jazz Ad]

Originally Posted by 96tbird

So what you're saying is Fender is going to buy Cort and Corts' will all become Squiers'. you are saying Fender will buy the Chinese factories?

It's more like Cort or Chinese factories will buy Fender.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by bmc

So far, this thread has been very USA centric. I don't see the USA as the benchmark for market growth. Asian economies are growing and kids are buying up gear like crazy. That's where the growth is.

+1 and good point that my only experience is in the US, and that is the context of my posts. I of course realize there is a big, diverse world out there I do know that when the jazz gigs mostly dried up in the US around 25 years ago or so, MANY of my jazz playing peers did tour after tour after tour in the EU, and I think that vibe continues to this day, for both big names in jazz and also the 'mid level' players.

[bmc]

Here is an interesting link that lists all the musical instrument manufacturers and the brands they build.

http://audiotools.com/en_mi_links_a.html

They have a link for defunct manufacurers as well.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by KJung

+1 and good point that my only experience is in the US, and that is the context of my posts. I of course realize there is a big, diverse world out there I do know that when the jazz gigs mostly dried up in the US around 25 years ago or so, MANY of my jazz playing peers did tour after tour after tour in the EU, and I think that vibe continues to this day, for both big names in jazz and also the 'mid level' players.

Yepper, and as other guys have probably already mentioned, this is a general thing in the US. Corporate welfare policies of the last several decades encouraged offshoring of American industries. This made about 300 people Bill Gates rich, so it was a successful effort, but it also pretty much eliminated onshore industry here in the states. And now, when everything is caving in, we have only a workforce with nothing to do; we can't respond to prop up the falling tent.

Offshore, though, there's been a fair bit of growth, though most of that came from the US and Europe.

As for music, I'm not surprised that there's been some blips in the east and even in Europe.

There's a saying now that if you want to live the American dream, move to Denmark. You could probably actually be respectable as a musician there (and not treated as a street person like here).

LS

[Tvrtko]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

It's more like Cort or Chinese factories will buy Fender.

I was just about to say: Chinese will buy Rickenbacker in next 5 years.

Now, I will wait for expected attack of Ric fans.

[smcd]

Originally Posted by bmc

$1,500 salaries? You need to catch up on what's going on in the world.

Nice to see corrections on China from Europeans

Anyway, lotta wrong going on up there. Including me, I suppose. The per capita income in China apparently is $4,940. Not much room there to buy a $2,000 bass, is there?


When people talk about economic growth in Asia, they mean China and Southeast Asia. Japan, though in Asia, has a stagnant economy, high(er) salaries, and has been heavily westernized.

If you want to prove your point re. instrument sales, don't post a photo of one high-end guitar shop in a busy industrial city to represent the cultural taste of a nation of 1.4 billion.

[smcd]

Originally Posted by savofenno

...dare i say income level in Japan & South Korea is higher than in America?

wow....you need to do a little reasearch before you dare say that.

[droskobass]

Ok, this is a weird post please be forewarned: I know it's off topic of the OP but I feel the discussion has turned this way and I've read the whole thread from the beginning...

There's plenty of cheese out there, it just has to be found. (even if it means changing what we do to ensure you find it) ten years ago in Montreal we all thought the music scene was dead, especially for rock music, so we stopped imitating other bands and focussed on just being creative.(since actually making it in this town was impossible anyway)

Fast forward to today: Montreal is now considered to be the number one city in North America (if not the world) to live in if you play music. (ask David Byrne who's spoken on the subject live)

Maybe a reason for that is that we have heath care, low rent, access to dozens of great studios, hundreds of venues owned by musicians, more students in the city than Boston, you can drive from here to NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, Toronto etc in less than a day. We've created our own Festivals that attract millions of listeners to come here! (Pop Montreal, Osheaga, M for Montreal, Fringe Fest, Montreal international Jazz festival, Franco Folies, Reggae festival etc..)

But even in this utopia I've seen as many musicians suffer while others thrive: usually because they're not writing their own music, they're not actively seeking out new bands to play with, not making new business contacts (If your booking agent isn't booking you, get a new booker...) They won't actually listen to criticism, they're not practicing, they have no online presence, or they're not growing an audience outside of the city...

As for instruments, Marcus Miller says play what you've got. that's all you need. I work 2 days a week at a small indie alternative music store that sells handmade pedals and custom basses... There is no Guitar Centre here in Montreal homogenizing everything (In fact the big box stores are suffering). You're way way more likely to get a gig in this town with a Kay or old silvertone or a musicmaster than a Fodera. Show up with a five string and in most indie clubs you'll be laughed off stage (in indy venues, the Metal/funk/jazz/neo-soul scenes are different by equally thriving )

As for Asia: They are buying American instruments (just not new Fenders) The sales rep for Heritage guitars told me at NAMM last year that he had just sent a hundred Heritage Guitars (Hand made in Kalamazoo, ZERO CNC, Zero Marketing) to the Philippines of all places!

Mike Lull has Japanese dealers walk into his shop several times a year with suitcases full of cash and buy his entire inventory. And if Mike signs the headstocks they fetch a premium. He's a star there...(again, zero marketing, just quality guitars)

So in every forrest there is new growth and rampant decay, but if one want to be an artist, be original... If people want to own a bass that looks like it was made in 1965 they can buy the movie prop, put it on the wall and point to it and tell all of their dentist friends at the dinner party it's a "1965 Fender Custom Shop"... They'll be so impressed! Then listen to Pat Metheny and dance the night away while the kids that moved here from Texas, playing two chords into an analog delay, win the grammy for album of the year..

Life is absurd! I hope I haven't offended or strayed too far off topic.

[Kryptos]

Originally Posted by smcd

Nice to see corrections on China from Europeans

I lived and worked in China from 1976 until 2008. You?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by droskobass

Ok, this is a weird post please be forewarned: I know it's off topic of the OP but I feel the discussion has turned this way and I've read the whole thread from the beginning...

There's plenty of cheese out there, it just has to be found. (even if it means changing what we do to ensure you find it) ten years ago in Montreal we all thought the music scene was dead, especially for rock music, so we stopped imitating other bands and focussed on just being creative.(since actually making it in this town was impossible anyway)

Fast forward to today: Montreal is now considered to be the number one city in North America (if not the world) to live in if you play music. (ask David Byrne who's spoken on the subject live)

Maybe a reason for that is that we have heath care, low rent, access to dozens of great studios, hundreds of venues owned by musicians, more students in the city than Boston, you can drive from here to NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, Toronto etc in less than a day. We've created our own Festivals that attract millions of listeners to come here! (Pop Montreal, Osheaga, M for Montreal, Fringe Fest, Montreal international Jazz festival, Franco Folies, Reggae festival etc..)

But even in this utopia I've seen as many musicians suffer while others thrive: usually because they're not writing their own music, they're not actively seeking out new bands to play with, not making new business contacts (If your booking agent isn't booking you, get a new booker...) They won't actually listen to criticism, they're not practicing, they have no online presence, or they're not growing an audience outside of the city...

As for instruments, Marcus Miller says play what you've got. that's all you need. I work 2 days a week at a small indie alternative music store that sells handmade pedals and custom basses... There is no Guitar Centre here in Montreal homogenizing everything (In fact the big box stores are suffering). You're way way more likely to get a gig in this town with a Kay or old silvertone or a musicmaster than a Fodera. Show up with a five string and in most indie clubs you'll be laughed off stage (in indy venues, the Metal/funk/jazz/neo-soul scenes are different by equally thriving )

As for Asia: They are buying American instruments (just not new Fenders) The sales rep for Heritage guitars told me at NAMM last year that he had just sent a hundred Heritage Guitars (Hand made in Kalamazoo, ZERO CNC, Zero Marketing) to the Philippines of all places!

Mike Lull has Japanese dealers walk into his shop several times a year with suitcases full of cash and buy his entire inventory. And if Mike signs the headstocks they fetch a premium. He's a star there...(again, zero marketing, just quality guitars)

So in every forrest there is new growth and rampant decay, but if one want to be an artist, be original... If people want to own a bass that looks like it was made in 1965 they can buy the movie prop, put it on the wall and point to it and tell all of their dentist friends at the dinner party it's a "1965 Fender Custom Shop"... They'll be so impressed! Then listen to Pat Metheny and dance the night away while the kids that moved here from Texas, playing two chords into an analog delay, win the grammy for album of the year..

Life is absurd! I hope I haven't offended or strayed too far off topic.

Lots of different ways to look at this interesting question. Yes, festivals, etc. are still alive and well in many places, including the US. There are even a few jazz festivals that happen in major cities that draw a big crowd (of course, that is once a year or so).

There are vibrant indie, hip hop or whatever scenes in many cities that I perform in, but in my experience those bands mostly work for the door, and if they can gig once a week they consider that a success. Probably enough money for a single kid sharing an apartment, but surely not enough to make a living.

So, different criteria to judge this whole issue. I am coming from more of the traditional 'professional, full time, hired gun' sort of background, where again, in the past you could easily work 345 nights a year, and even more gigs than that if you could read a bit (e.g., there were union rehearsal gigs available during the day, greensheet charity gigs in the afternoons on weekdays, etc.), and, as you say, behave like a professional in all the ways any profession would require. This is what has completely disappeared. You are correct though, plenty of clubs for an original band to 'play for the door' on a Thursday night in most places.

Regarding the gear thing, no offense, but I always chuckle at that Marcus quote, considering he was one of the primary guys who went through all kind of customization of his J bass to get it to sound like he wanted

Anyway, very interesting discussion, and I think it is not OT, since one of the questions the OP raised was basically 'is this a great time that will continue and get better', or (as I think) is this the equivalent of the last gasp of the gilded age before something totally new takes over (as happens almost every 30-50 years in most categories). Who knows. My experience suggest the latter.

[smcd]

Originally Posted by Kryptos

I lived and worked in China from 1976 until 2008. You?

Well, I didn't work and live in China. But then I didn't roll out Apple sales figures to support a point about electric guitar sales.


Nice guitar store photo. How many of those places did you see in China?