How hard is fretless?

[Matthijs]

Originally Posted by unclejane

Actually, no, that's the essence of playing the FL. It's not about the flying fingers just happening to land in the right place like it is on the fretted. On the fretted, you just have to get somewhere in the neighborhood of the fret and the result is automatically in tune. That's why you can actually have terrible technique and still pound out in-tune notes on a fretted bass.

But on the FL, the technique is about listening and correcting. There's a pretty much 100% chance that you will be off either flat or sharp. So you have to plan on correcting basically 100% of the time.

That's how really good FL players always _sound_ in tune - they're off just as much as the rest of us but they correct their intonation on-the-fly so well that it works.

It's like singing - you have to listen and correct there all the time also, but good singers sound in tune regardless....

PS: You sometimes hear that playing FL improves your technique overall because of this requirement for always correcting your intonation. I don't know if that's necessarily true or not. I don't sound any better on fretted basses now than I did before I switched to FL and in fact have slightly more trouble with it now (I tend to land on top of the fret and often over it, accidentally fretting the next note).

You do develop a fretless-specific technique though for sure which may or may not help you on the fretted bass. I still click and clop and just generally sound weak and clacky on fretted so it didn't help me that much at all lol.

LS

I agree with Clef de fa: proper technique for fretless also involves being able to hit the right note right away when you have to. Sure you need to be able to adjust by ear when you're off and sliding is part of the fun of fretless, but if that's the only way you can do it you're limiting yourself to that one fretless sound. Imho the mwah should be in you fingers, not in the instrument. And that is perfectly possible. Like you said it's like singing. When a good singer has found the right note he can find the next one without having to adjust inbetween.

[jgroh]

I always loved the sound of fretless. I played fretted for about 23 years before getting my first fretless. I didnt know anything about how to play it...where to put my fingers for it to be in tune. I was completely clueless at first, got a little frustrated and almost returned it (Squire VM Fretless). Once I figured it out I got up and going pretty quickly. Now, I have only gigged with it a couple of times but for the most part I can play it well enough so you wouldnt know I was playing fretless unless I wanted you to know.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by spade2you

The whole lined vs. unlined debate is mostly BS. There are many unlined players and many lined players. They generally stick with one or the other because that's how they learned to play fretless.

Agree. There's nothing conclusive about either one and it's down in the noise of personal preference.

Another thing I did learn from switching to FL is, if the situation is so bad that I can't intonate by listen-&-correct:
- it's too loud, doing damage to my hearing
- the mix is screwed up; I'm too soft or the guitarist is too soft, etc.
- it's likely nothing fun for me anyway; a loud blur just pisses me off rather than gives me any enjoyment

So if I'm having trouble making the music, there's a problem there. Either I get it corrected or I pack up and leave.

If I were gigging for a living, though, where I didn't have that liberty, I'd probably just use a fretted in those instances and just grin & bear it.....

LS

[buffalobillh]

My only bass for about 15 years was an active Jazz V I defretted. It was a good bass fretted, but it was a fantastic fretless bass. I sent it down the road and got a fretted precision. I knew it was a mistake as soon as I did it. I play upright, so I haven't been without a fretless instrument, but I'm getting another fretless electric bass because you cannot deny its appeal. Sound, expressiveness, freedom... It's a good thing. Gotta have it back.

Regarding mwah factor, the Pao Ferro fretboard was alright, but ebony is the ticket. Or maybe a good epoxy job. But at this stage of the game, worrying over that is a bit premature. If you start playing fretless, you can always look for different strings, fretboards, electronics, and basses that can better dial in on the sound you really want to create.

For me, getting acclimated to fretless was a matter of practice, repetition, and developing muscle memory. It is similar to upright bass - although you have indicators of position, you eventually learn where the notes are on the fingerboard/fretboard. Those fretlines, dots, markers, heel, etc. eventually become reference points instead of visual training guides as they are in the beginning.

Accuracy in intonation comes with muscle memory. When you are confident/competent/comfortable with your technique and intonation (the foundation), you can take your expressiveness to another level (building on the foundation). It's similar to golf. You can learn the fundamentals and play well enough to hit the ball down the fairway. But with out the fundamentals, you'll never be able to begin to shape your shots, curve the ball, and make it go exactly where you want and how you want (golf equivalent of expression).

Defretting can be a crapshoot, but if you have a good luthier that has experience with defretting, that's your best chance of having it work out. Even then, it's not a guarantee. I have another J bass V I was going to defret, but I changed my mind after I fell in love with the Lakland neck profile and 35" scale. Plus, the J bass is a really good bass like it is, so I don't want to risk ruining that. So... a fretless Lakland is in the works. I already know I love fretless, so I can invest more money with confidence. But as a fretless newbie, if you want to spend some time on an inexpensive fretless, there's no harm in that. If you really like the fretless experience, you can always trade up. If fretless is not your thing, you can always sell it pretty easily and still have your fretted bass that you like and already play well.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by IronLung1986

When you get good enough you'll hit notes accurately and consistently. Until then you must master the fine art of Correcting Screw-ups with Style.

I know that, I've been playing fretless for a few years now and I also played DB a few years during my college degree. And each time I played with a piano teacher to prepare my final exam I had to correct some of the note I played to be in tune and saddly correcting the note equal you didn't play it in tune to begin with.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by unclejane

Actually, no, that's the essence of playing the FL. It's not about the flying fingers just happening to land in the right place like it is on the fretted. On the fretted, you just have to get somewhere in the neighborhood of the fret and the result is automatically in tune. That's why you can actually have terrible technique and still pound out in-tune notes on a fretted bass.

But on the FL, the technique is about listening and correcting. There's a pretty much 100% chance that you will be off either flat or sharp. So you have to plan on correcting basically 100% of the time.

That's how really good FL players always _sound_ in tune - they're off just as much as the rest of us but they correct their intonation on-the-fly so well that it works.

It's like singing - you have to listen and correct there all the time also, but good singers sound in tune regardless....

PS: You sometimes hear that playing FL improves your technique overall because of this requirement for always correcting your intonation. I don't know if that's necessarily true or not. I don't sound any better on fretted basses now than I did before I switched to FL and in fact have slightly more trouble with it now (I tend to land on top of the fret and often over it, accidentally fretting the next note).

You do develop a fretless-specific technique though for sure which may or may not help you on the fretted bass. I still click and clop and just generally sound weak and clacky on fretted so it didn't help me that much at all lol.

LS

I know how it is on the fretless bass, I've been playing it for a few years now and I also played the DB. So I know you may have to correct your intonation but still, if you land sharp or flat ... you aren't in tune to begin with. On the DB if you are off, you are off even if correct after. Classical teacher are really strict with that.

A vibrato help to cover some of that but still, it is really a problem because the moment you hear you are out of tune, it is already too late you are off.

Yes it improve your technic because you fret better instead of fretting in the center you are more on the top of the fret and you are less likely to have unwanted buzz.

[lokikallas]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Don't defret your bass. Get an inexpensive fretless.

+1

[khutch]

Playing fretless is so difficult that every year millions of 5 year olds start learning to play violin which is fretless, unlined, undotted, and much less forgiving due to its shorter scale. Now they do sound like crap for the first few years and many drop out. But you can do it. Just be warned that it will take devotion to learn to do it right and no one who is telling you to learn to cover or correct your mistakes has yet learned to do it right. The reason you need a good ear is so that you know when you are off pitch, the way you correct being off pitch is by learning to hit every note right, the first time. I listen to a lot of professional string players and I don't hear them correcting sour notes, I hear them nailing every note. Much of the time they, like you, will be playing notes too rapidly to cover mistakes with vibrato. The choirs that sing with them from time to time don't miss notes either.

Now I am not that good a singer personally and not even close yet on a fretless bass. But I do know what is humanly possible to do and a lot of people here on TB set the bar far too low. In a way I understand that, I too may start to perform publicly on fretless before I have mastered it and the advice you see above is valuable in that situation. But I don't intend to be complacent. I intend to strive for the perfection that I know is possible. And you should too!

Ken

[ReiPsaeg]

Fretless fingerboards tend to be harder than fretted ones so they don't get worn away by the strings.

Don't defret your bass whatever you do. There are so many cheap fretless options out there that there is no point in ruining a perfectly good fretted neck. You could even buy a fretless neck for your current bass if that's possible.

[MD]

Originally Posted by ReiPsaeg

Don't defret your bass whatever you do. There are so many cheap fretless options out there that there is no point in ruining a perfectly good fretted neck. You could even buy a fretless neck for your current bass if that's possible.

Agreed. There's just too many inexpensive, factory fretless basses out there to risk hacking up a perfectly usable fretted bass. Had there been, I would have never defretted my '67P back in the "70"s. However, it seems OP has his mind made up.

[AudioDwebe]

Originally Posted by Matthijs

Imho the mwah should be in you fingers, not in the instrument.

Can you please explain this?

Thanks.

Mamoru

[buffalobillh]

Tone is in the hands. You can set your amp and bass any way you want, but the tone that is yours comes from you. Knobs and switches are great, but regardless of amps, basses, settings, etc., you will always sound like you. You'll hear the flavor from the various rigs and settings, but it's still you.

How you play, where you play, what kind of touch you use, your technique, and your concept of sound all help determine tone.

[Mojo-Man]

Originally Posted by Luke19Boarder

I'd say ear training and muscle memory.

Before you do anything drastic, go to your local music shop and check out any fretlesses they have, to see if it's something you would want to get in to.

+1 on the above.
Also, go play a fretless for more than say 10 minutes.
Let you hands and you mind get tired first.
Then see If you still like it.
If so, make the plunge.

[nostatic]

Fretless is impossible. And it is a tool of satan. You've been warned.

Or is it tool of santa? Damn, I hate being dyslexic...

[buffalobillh]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Or is it tool of santa? Damn, I hate being dyslexic...

Ho Ho Ho! Bring me a fretless, fat man!

[meversol]

I've played fretless for quite a few years now. It probably won't be easy at first, but the work will be worth it. You can actually make a fretless sound like a fretted bass, so anyone saying that fretless doesn't work for certain styles is wrong. I played fretless bass in a metal band for a year. However, I don't recommend defretting your bass. It would be a lot of work to refret it. Also, you will probably want to play a fretted bass at some point. You should save up and buy a fretless. That way, you have both.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by Matthijs

I agree with Clef de fa: proper technique for fretless also involves being able to hit the right note right away when you have to. Sure you need to be able to adjust by ear when you're off and sliding is part of the fun of fretless, but if that's the only way you can do it you're limiting yourself to that one fretless sound. Imho the mwah should be in you fingers, not in the instrument. And that is perfectly possible. Like you said it's like singing. When a good singer has found the right note he can find the next one without having to adjust inbetween.

Well you get better at it the more you practice, sure. My only point was there's no way to get it absolutely perfect every time and it's unrealistic to expect to get it perfect.

Like Steve Bailey says the FL is not just about playing in tune, it's about being able to control your intonation. And that includes being able to correct on-the-fly when you are (inevitably) off, or intentionally being further off and gliss'ing the note up or down to where you want it stylistically.

Otherwise, totally agree....

LS

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by khutch

I listen to a lot of professional string players and I don't hear them correcting sour notes, I hear them nailing every note.

No you don't. That's why they're good - their intonation control is so good it just sounds like they hit it perfectly every time.
Strange but true....

LS

[CraigTB]

I have an unlined fretless that I'm working with (lots more work to go ha ha).

I always wanted a lined fretless, but got a good deal on the one I have.

The funny thing now is after playing it, I don't see how lines would help me since when I stand up and play, I can't see the front of the fretboard anyway.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by unclejane

No you don't. That's why they're good - their intonation control is so good it just sounds like they hit it perfectly every time.
Strange but true....

LS

If they really good on controling their intonation then they hit the right note every time. Classical music isn't very forgiving