How to setup a fretless bass?

[klaus486]

A long time ago a luthier friend gave me a piece of advice about setting up guitars - "You are dealing with threaded technology. If you have turned a screw one way and it's made matters worse. Turn the screw the other way."

The amounts we're dealing with are usually very small so RARELY will you be doing multiple turns of a screw.

Proper intonation is important to get the notes on the neck to line up with either the lines, if you have them, or the side position markers. I defy ANYONE except a blind man to tell me they play bass without EVER looking at the neck. Even upright players look.
Intonate the bass.

There's not much magic involved here. Use the resources available to you via the printed word, Youtube/video, advice from trusted players and the information gleaned from your own eyes/brain. If you need to measure then measure. If you like to eyeball and go by feel then do that. I personally set up via eye & feel. But I have been doing this for a LONG time.

In my estimation the NUT is the single most important thing to get right on a fretless or really any bass. It is also the easiest thing to screw up. Even 1 too many swipes with a nut file can ruin it. If you're comfortable doing nut work then go for it! If not then save some pennies and take your fretless to a reputable luthier and have it set up properly. Make sure he or she is familiar with fretless bass setup first. 99%...ok 96% of basses have crappily cut nuts whether fretless or fretted.

Once it's done properly you may become addicted to the fretless so be forewarned!

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

+ 1



I don't think anyone is advocating inconsistent basic intonation, but some people, to me, aren't advocating for consistent basic intonation either, and in my opinion, if you are not using precise methods to determine intonation then it will be more likely to inconsistent than if you did use precise methods.

And about taking a long time, that was not directed at you, but more at unclejane who twice said that time measuring and getting a precise setup would be better spent practicing. If you're doing setups anyway, taking the extra two minutes to take out a tool and, in my opinion to do it right, is worthwhile.

I do agree that as fretless players we will always need to adjust to be in tune, but muscle memory is important to, how accurate our muscle memory is really determined on how much we'll need to adjust after we put our finger down. I truly believe that a person who has consistent intonation across all strings will develop their muscle memory better than someone who's intonation isn't as consistent. And of course two students will learn differently, and each of their progress after a year will depend on many, many factors. I thought my point was quite simple though. Take it this way then, if these two students are identical twins, have the exact same ability to learn bass, have the exact same ear before starting and musical aptitude, both play for the exact same amount of time, and both practice the exact same material. I do think that student A will eventually come out with better immediate intonation. Sure student B, will be good at getting into tune, same as student A, but A, I believe, will be closer initially, and to me, that counts for a lot.

And no, I wouldn't find your bass unplayable. I would adjust as necessary.

This thread is getting real ridiculous, by the way. I don't understand why anyone would try to preach to a fretless noob, not to do their own setups and that it doesn't matter that much. I don't even understand how anyone can adopt that theory. Just because you don't feel the need to do it, does not mean that need does not exist.

I'm done. This thread is just going to continue in a pointless argument.

Audiodwebe, you seem to want to get accurate setups, which recommend. use the link I posted in post #3. If you feel the relief is too high, then lower it, and measure where are so you know for next time. If the action is too high, then do the same. Experiment and re-measure. Next time you attempt to set it up, you know where everything should be so you know if it needs a little adjustment or not. Different basses will be better with different measurements and different strings matter too. What works on one bass will not work another, but if you find a bass that sings to you, with strings to match, then by all means measure and find what's right. It makes doing your setups a lot easier and more precise. If you have any questions please feel free to PM me.

Anything can seem pointless if you don't see both sides.


Maybe this pic will help...



So how exactly would you adjust this? It's a single bar in a slot.



I play all of these basses. The Spruce top Elrick towards the left and the Stambaugh singlecut on the far right both have fixed bridges. As I mentioned, I doubt they intonate to the levels some have described here... so could they play them in tune? Pretty simple straightforward question.


That's my point.

[klaus486]

Now imagine those 2 lovely basses with the fixed bridge "fixed" exactly opposite the way they are now. With the low B side way up toward the front. I'm guessing you wouldn't have bought them. I agree they cannot be adjusted but they sure were designed correctly with the "intonation" built right in! There's a reason they are set up the way they are!

Btw your collection of basses is drool worthy! A fretless lover's dream! Funny because the Elrick was the one that caught my eye first! You are a luck man with great taste! Which one is your main player?

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by klaus486

Now imagine those 2 lovely basses with the fixed bridge "fixed" exactly opposite the way they are now. With the low B side way up toward the front. I'm guessing you wouldn't have bought them. I agree they cannot be adjusted but they sure were designed correctly with the "intonation" built right in! There's a reason they are set up the way they are!

Do you seriously think that the intonation is spot on with that type of bridge? That that bar is set to compensate for any variable? That it will make any strings I use set up identically?

Or that they're simply close enough? And the rest is up to the player?

Btw your collection of basses is drool worthy! A fretless lover's dream! Funny because the Elrick was the one that caught my eye first! You are a luck man with great taste! Which one is your main player?

Thanks. My main fretlesses that I gig with are a Brubaker 6 not pictured and the Spalted Maple Brubaker 5

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

So how exactly would you adjust this? It's a single bar in a slot.
....
The Spruce top Elrick towards the left and the Stambaugh singlecut on the far right both have fixed bridges. As I mentioned, I doubt they intonate to the levels some have described here... so could they play them in tune? Pretty simple straightforward question.


That's my point.

And mine also:
- On these basses of Brad's, the intonation can't even be adjusted even if you wanted to try to adjust it.
- On basses where it is adjustable, there's no way to truly tell that it even _is_ intonated, beyond only a very gross measure (i.e the nodes are directly over the general area on the neck that corresponds to the note).

I sincerely doubt anyone would be able to demonstrate that their FL bass's "intonation" is off or on to the millimeter degrees they claim is necessary to play the instrument.

So basically, when the credit card and feeler gauges come out to "intonate" a fretless, my contention is you've decided to start wasting valuable time servicing a placebo effect that could better be put to use practicing and enjoying your playing.

I don't disagree that there are setup efforts that are worth it, such as getting the action and relief exactly where it's most comfortable and serviceable. But I do disagree that trying to intonate a FL is one of those worthwhile efforts. You just can't get there from here....

LS

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by klaus486

In my estimation the NUT is the single most important thing to get right on a fretless or really any bass. It is also the easiest thing to screw up. Even 1 too many swipes with a nut file can ruin it. If you're comfortable doing nut work then go for it! If not then save some pennies and take your fretless to a reputable luthier and have it set up properly. Make sure he or she is familiar with fretless bass setup first. 99%...ok 96% of basses have crappily cut nuts whether fretless or fretted.

Agreed, this is a good example of a setup item that really _is_ worth finessing and spending time doing careful work on.

For example, I did one too many swipes on one of the slots on my Bunny 6 string (the D string) and it's got that tell-tale whine when played open. It was literally 2 swipes of my file to mess it up lol. Fortunately, as the string's tone has died from repeated playing, it's not that noticeable so I've left it and don't care anymore.

So things like that really _do_ make a difference.

Also note that intonation is down in the noise of string type and action. I.e. I have found that flats intonate differently on my FL's than rounds do (I seem to have to "fret" flat over against the situation with rounds). But even after changing the strings, a few bars into whatever I'm playing I'm back in tune without ever having to launch an attack on my bridge.

Same thing with the action, which I"ve found alters things every so slightly. But again, even after an adjustment I'm back in tune usually faster than I can get the allen wrenches out...

LS

[brad houser]

intonate as you would a fretted bass. it's important to have consistency between the strings when doing octave jumps.

[metron]

I always intonate when changing strings because its adjustable and it takes about 10 minutes. Its not essential but if you can, why not?

Also i always measure when setting up. The same settings dont work on all basses but when i measure i feel its a little more consistent.

[klaus486]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Do you seriously think that the intonation is spot on with that type of bridge? That that bar is set to compensate for any variable? That it will make any strings I use set up identically?

Or that they're simply close enough? And the rest is up to the player?




Thanks. My main fretlesses that I gig with are a Brubaker 6 not pictured and the Spalted Maple Brubaker 5

To each his own I guess! I intonate using my fingers. No magic wands or credit cards. I'm at the point with my fretless bass where I can tell if its out of tune when I play it. I "could" I spose just go about my business and play the thing with it out of tune. But I don't and I intonate it when doing a set up. Ok I intonated it when I got it but have had no need to change anything since I only use one brand & gauge of strings!

Again ALL your basses are beautiful! Anywhere where we can hear them?

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Do you seriously think that the intonation is spot on with that type of bridge? That that bar is set to compensate for any variable? That it will make any strings I use set up identically?

Or that they're simply close enough? And the rest is up to the player?


Thanks. My main fretlesses that I gig with are a Brubaker 6 not pictured and the Spalted Maple Brubaker 5

Well, on an acoustic, the coarse intonation adjustment is made using the angle of the saddle and then, each string's intonation is compensated by filing toward/away from the bottom of the guitar, so the break points aren't in a straight line. I would think your fixed bridge basses could be intonated the same way.

Judging by the others, you apparently like Hipshot bridges, eh? Nice herd, BTW.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by klaus486

To each his own I guess! I intonate using my fingers. No magic wands or credit cards. I'm at the point with my fretless bass where I can tell if its out of tune when I play it. I "could" I spose just go about my business and play the thing with it out of tune. But I don't and I intonate it when doing a set up. Ok I intonated it when I got it but have had no need to change anything since I only use one brand & gauge of strings!

Again ALL your basses are beautiful! Anywhere where we can hear them?

I use my fingers and ears too.

I'm a local player, most of my gigs are private (much better pay, less stress, etc. ), I do play in a church on Sundays in VA.

[spade2you]

I don't really worry much about intonating the bridge. My Rob Allen basses have an acoustic style bridge and they behave just fine. Given that the best pitch isn't at the fret or fret line, I don't see a whole lot of point.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by spade2you

I don't really worry much about intonating the bridge. My Rob Allen basses have an acoustic style bridge and they behave just fine. Given that the best pitch isn't at the fret or fret line, I don't see a whole lot of point.

Agreed... the best pitch is where the note ultimately ends up being.


Frankly the people I see who have the most problems playing fretless are the ones who are hellbent on playing a note where it's "supposed" to be. It's supposed to be wherever it is. Once you let go of the rigid thinking for a far from rigid type of instrument...


At least that's been my experience.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

Well, on an acoustic, the coarse intonation adjustment is made using the angle of the saddle and then, each string's intonation is compensated by filing toward/away from the bottom of the guitar, so the break points aren't in a straight line. I would think your fixed bridge basses could be intonated the same way.

Judging by the others, you apparently like Hipshot bridges, eh? Nice herd, BTW.

Coarse adjustment won't get you very far on either of my basses. And it's not something you can do over and over again without replacing parts. And most important in my case, I don't need it to play either one of them in tune.

The people who build the basses I use favor them. They work well, do the three adjustments I want, hold up well cosmetically and mechanically. I like the low profile ABM bridges like I had on my Marleaux too.

[VintageBoutique]

I don't think you can get the right intonation on a fretless bass without a Leo Quan BA bridge.

[Jools4001]

I have been playing fretless a long time, it's around 40 years ago since I picked up my first one. I have good enough intonation that my fretless only sounds like a fretless when I choose to gliss into notes, milk the vibrato or the mwah.

At least I could until I recently took my fretless apart to refurbish it. It needed the fingerboard truing up to get rid of some string wear grooves. I have done the work myself, taking my time and getting the board just right. I also replaced the bridge with a Schaller 2000.

Once I had put it all back together, I did a rough set up, to make sure that the relief was in the right ballpark, that the saddles were adjusted, that the intonation was near enough, then over the next few days tweaking the truss rod and refining the setup to be where I need it to be. I am not measuring relief, or action - just getting it to be where I'm happy with it.

Intonation is a different matter. Until I got the intonation of the bass sorted out so that each string had the same relative intonation, my own intonation seemed to have gone down the toilet. The absolute intonation of the bass doesn't matter (ie whether the octave is exactly on half scale length). It doesn't matter to me if the octave on the G string is an inch out from it's theoretical half scale length, but the other strings had better be intonated so that their octaves fall in exactly the same position across the neck as the G octave.

Why anyone wouldn't bother doing this, or argue that it doesn't matter, escapes me. Why would anyone want to be continually adjusting to the fact that one string is intonated a little sharp of the octave, this ones a little flat, this one is OK? Sure you can adjust by listening, and we all do, but fretless is a challenging enough beast without making it harder than it need be.

Tell you what, if it doesn't matter that much and you are all are so expert at adjusting your own intonation, why bother tuning the bass? Nah, just leave this string flat, that one sharp...no problem...I'll correct it on the fly...yeah right, you wouldn't put up with it for very long.

Gary Willis has a good section on how to intonate a fretless in one of his books. Gary seems to think it is necessary and, no offence, but since he could probably play rings around any of us I'll stick with his advice

[JTE]

I haven't messed with the intonation on my first fretless for several years. It's an unlined board, and until I switched it from rounds to flats, I just changed strings and tweaked the truss rod as needed. But I did spend a good bit of time early on setting the intonation so its consistent across all four strings (and even more time precisely cutting the nut- because almost NO mass market company does even a competent job on nuts, let alone a really proper job).

I just checked the Lakland fretless with my Peters VS-II tuner, and it plays in tune when I play it like my fretted basses- the 12th stop is in tune if I stop the string with my finger just behind the 12th fret mark. This allows it to play in tune when I also stop the 7th stop just behind the line- where my fingers would press to play the same note on a fretted bass. And because my main fretted bass is another Lakland 4-94, that works very well for me.

To the OP's original question... measuring is a good way to learn how to set up your bass. Write down what you measure, then if you change something and write down the changed measures, you can always go back to what you had before. After you learn what YOU like, and repeat those set up measurements, you'll also develop the eye and the feel for what you like. I've not measured anything on any of my instruments for about ten years now (except when I had to put a new trem bridge on my Strat- then I measured how far above the body I set the end of the tailpiece). That's because after over 35 years of playing bass and doing my own work (I managed a guitar store for 11 years and did almost all the set up work for the store) I know what I like and do it by feel. But I had to experiment with different settings, and because lots of these things are interactive, it's good to know where you were when you started.

Also regarding the differences between fretted and fretless- I like a bit less relief on my fretless basses, but I don't have a lot on the fretted ones any more- much less relief than Fender's Mr. Gearhead site specifies, and less than the 1/32" (measured at the 7th fret with the first and last frets stopped) that my '78 StingRay's owner's manual specified too.

The trade off is that there's a very fine line between too little relief and where I like it, so do tweak the truss rods on the two fretless basses more than the fretted ones.

John

[zortation]

Originally Posted by AudioDwebe

I just learned how to properly set up a fretted bass via youtube and Mr. Carruthers. It seems pretty straight forward and easy enough. But I could not find any info on how to properly set up a fretless bass.

Would all the target numbers (measured from the frets to bottom of strings on a fretted) be the same on a fretless? In other words, would I take the measurement from the fretboard where a fret normally would be and utilize the same set of numbers?

Thanks.

Mamoru

If you want it to have the same relative action as you're used to, then yes, do it that way. The action for all intents and purposes, will be lower than on a fretted, simply because the added clearance for the frets is not needed.

And as others have said, slot height at the nut is very important to how your action feels...again using the reference of string height from fret top to string bottom on a fretted would make sense, maybe?

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by VintageBoutique

I don't think you can get the right intonation on a fretless bass without a Leo Quan BA bridge.

Sure you can. You have to start by installing the bridge in a position where it's range of adjustment fall where your intonation is be to set.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Jools4001

I have been playing fretless a long time, it's around 40 years ago since I picked up my first one. I have good enough intonation that my fretless only sounds like a fretless when I choose to gliss into notes, milk the vibrato or the mwah.

At least I could until I recently took my fretless apart to refurbish it. It needed the fingerboard truing up to get rid of some string wear grooves. I have done the work myself, taking my time and getting the board just right. I also replaced the bridge with a Schaller 2000.

Once I had put it all back together, I did a rough set up, to make sure that the relief was in the right ballpark, that the saddles were adjusted, that the intonation was near enough, then over the next few days tweaking the truss rod and refining the setup to be where I need it to be. I am not measuring relief, or action - just getting it to be where I'm happy with it.

Intonation is a different matter. Until I got the intonation of the bass sorted out so that each string had the same relative intonation, my own intonation seemed to have gone down the toilet. The absolute intonation of the bass doesn't matter (ie whether the octave is exactly on half scale length). It doesn't matter to me if the octave on the G string is an inch out from it's theoretical half scale length, but the other strings had better be intonated so that their octaves fall in exactly the same position across the neck as the G octave.

Why anyone wouldn't bother doing this, or argue that it doesn't matter, escapes me. Why would anyone want to be continually adjusting to the fact that one string is intonated a little sharp of the octave, this ones a little flat, this one is OK? Sure you can adjust by listening, and we all do, but fretless is a challenging enough beast without making it harder than it need be.

Why would anyone need to be continually adjusting? Because they can't remember where the note they played before is?

Tell you what, if it doesn't matter that much and you are all are so expert at adjusting your own intonation, why bother tuning the bass? Nah, just leave this string flat, that one sharp...no problem...I'll correct it on the fly...yeah right, you wouldn't put up with it for very long.

You really don't understand what some of us are saying, do you?

Gary Willis has a good section on how to intonate a fretless in one of his books. Gary seems to think it is necessary and, no offence, but since he could probably play rings around any of us I'll stick with his advice

Whatever floats your boat. This seems to be another one of those "more heat than light" threads. Nothing new about that.