If a Bass Guitar sounds good "unplugged", then should it sound good amplified?

[Bert Slide]

I don't know because if a bass doesn't sound and feel good to me acoustically I never bother to plug it in. Maybe I'm missing out on finding my soulmate.

[groovaholic]

If it sounds good acoustically, it has the POTENTIAL to sound good plugged in.

But lots of instruments have electronics that don't do justice to the wood.

[mystic38]

this..

Originally Posted by khutch

When you listen to the sound of an unplugged bass you hear the acoustic output of everything on the bass that is vibrating. Most importantly you hear the entire sonic output of the string, all its harmonic content. Pickups respond only to the relative motion between the string and the body of the bass at the location where they are mounted. They are completely deaf to harmonics that happen to have motional nodes right above them and partially deaf to harmonics that have motional nodes nearby. They also will not reproduce any neck or body vibrations except those that occur right where they are mounted and even those are modified by the pickup mounting details, something that none of the tone wood gurus ever discuss. So there really is no direct connection between acoustic and amplified tone unless you use a microphone to feed the amp and leave the bass unplugged. If a bass sounds good both acoustically and electrically then the builder has done a good job of making an acoustic bass and a good job of selecting and placing the pickups. A bass does not have to sound good acoustically to sound great plugged in.

Ken

[Lorenzop]

Originally Posted by khutch

When you listen to the sound of an unplugged bass you hear the acoustic output of everything on the bass that is vibrating. Most importantly you hear the entire sonic output of the string, all its harmonic content. Pickups respond only to the relative motion between the string and the body of the bass at the location where they are mounted. They are completely deaf to harmonics that happen to have motional nodes right above them and partially deaf to harmonics that have motional nodes nearby. They also will not reproduce any neck or body vibrations except those that occur right where they are mounted and even those are modified by the pickup mounting details, something that none of the tone wood gurus ever discuss. So there really is no direct connection between acoustic and amplified tone unless you use a microphone to feed the amp and leave the bass unplugged. If a bass sounds good both acoustically and electrically then the builder has done a good job of making an acoustic bass and a good job of selecting and placing the pickups. A bass does not have to sound good acoustically to sound great plugged in.

Ken

Interesting Ken
On the other hand - where does good/ bad wood quality and sound properties come into this? Are you saying then all that wood then is needed only to "produce" the sound in that very limited spot / spectrum where the PU will be "listening"?
I mean otherwise how do you explain wood sound properties, and the big effect of neck wood/ size on the overall sound?
Thanks

[topo morto]

Originally Posted by LeonD

One way it was explained to me early on was to think of the neck, body and strings like a vocalist and think of the electronics like a microphone.

If you have a great vocalist and give them a crappy microphone, they'll sound crappy. Give them a great mike and they'll sound great.

If you have a crappy vocalist and you give them a crappy mic, they'll sound crappy. If you give them a better microphone, they will sound better than with the crappy mic but they still won't sound good.

That's really not a good analogy. A singer has a control mechanism (brain), an oscillator (vocal cords) and resonating elements. The bass guitar is arguably only a resonator.

[topo morto]

Originally Posted by Lorenzop

Interesting Ken
On the other hand - where does good/ bad wood quality and sound properties come into this? Are you saying then all that wood then is needed only to "produce" the sound in that very limited spot / spectrum where the PU will be "listening"?

yes... and so you can hold it comfortably, and have a space to mount the electronics. And so it looks like a traditional instrument, so people will buy it.

Originally Posted by Lorenzop

I mean otherwise how do you explain wood sound properties, and the big effect of neck wood/ size on the overall sound?

There aren't, as far as I know, well-known simple relationships between these things and tonal quality. That's absolutely not to say that they don't make a difference... just that it's not as simple as 'this wood sounds like X, this wood sounds like Y'.

[wideload]

My Alembic bass doesn't have alot of volume or noticable tone when unplugged. Amplified, however, it is full, clear and versatile in giving me the volume and tone that I want. THAT is how I use it. If you want an acoustic bass, them get one. There is no doubt in my mind as to the build quality of my bass, but it is designed to be amplified, not played with a microphone stuck near it.

[khutch]

Originally Posted by Lorenzop

I mean otherwise how do you explain wood sound properties, and the big effect of neck wood/ size on the overall sound?

If you are speaking acoustically then many details of the wood choices and construction methods have the potential to contribute to the tone. We know this from acoustic instruments. But the physics of magnetic pickups are unforgiving. The only thing that produces an electrical signal is the relative motion between the pickup and the string. Once you amplify that signal enough to overpower the direct acoustic output of the instrument there is very little room for all these other factors to have much influence. The string itself is moving a lot. The endpoints of the string are moving very little. The body of the bass where the pickups are attached is moving very little. The output level is directly proportional to the amount of motion and the great majority of the motion is the natural vibratory motion of the string itself.

So to what do I attribute the extreme tonal changes that are often claimed here for wood choices? The placebo effect. The type of foam that is used underneath the pickups potentially has as much affect on the relative motion and therefore the tone as the woods the bass is made from and as I say, no one here ever talks about, notes, or controls for that. Now this is not to say that certain woods and construction details do not have enough effect to be audible. They may have a large enough effect to be detectable, if not by all then by some. But to call them huge is just wrong in my opinion and the few experiments that have been conducted here, flawed as they may be, seem to bear this out.

If you are out to capture some specific tone then you had better have the right strings, the right pickups correctly placed, and the right playing technique. If you want to go beyond that and capture some delicate sonic nuance then, yeah, perhaps you need to have specific woods and construction details too. Just don't expect many of the rest of us to notice! And even you won't be able to hear it over that crappy singer!!

For those who want to make analogies the strings are like the singer, the pickups are like the microphone, and the rest of the bass is like the microphone stand.

Ken

[paganjack]

Originally Posted by Silver Blues

Well most basses are at best very quiet unplugged, especially on the lows, so I'd say no.

--Silvie

If you put a mic REALLY close to the strings, you'd be surprised how much low end there is!

I would say unplugged sound is more about the wave envelope (i.e. sustain, attack, etc) than other parts of the tone. Most of the brightness/natural EQ curve is MUCH more dependent on strings and pickups.

[JoeWPgh]

I would say yes *IF* you are familiar with and like the pickup arrangement. P, J, PJ, MM, etc. But if you don't like the sound of say, a MM, I don't see how it's accoustic tone will matter. Likewise, if you are unfamilliar with the pickup arrangement, the accoustic tone alone won't tell you enough.

[RonniePudding]

Presuming you're talking about a slab bass with magnetic pickups, the electric current going through your cable to the amp doesn't care that the neck is bubinga versus maple, or that the body is swamp ash versus basswood. To my understanding it's "just" an electric signal generated by moving a piece of metal (string) in front of a magnet (pickup pole). The quality of the strings and pickups is what shapes the tone (along with the tone/volume pots, circuit boards, onboard preamp, etc. where relevant).

The construction of the rest of the instrument affects intonation, sustain, and playability... all of which are critical, but those qualities aren't strictly speaking a part of the "tone" to my mind. I suppose you could argue that high-end materials and construction cut down on dead spots and fret buzz, but isn't that really sustain in the end?

Instruments with piezoelectric pickups are a different story, but then again I played a Kala Ubass the other day...

[topo morto]

Originally Posted by RonniePudding

Presuming you're talking about a slab bass with magnetic pickups, the electric current going through your cable to the amp doesn't care that the neck is bubinga versus maple, or that the body is swamp ash versus basswood. To my understanding it's "just" an electric signal generated by moving a piece of metal (string) in front of a magnet (pickup pole).

It's not quite that simple though - the vibrations in the strings get transmitted into the neck and body, which shake around and in turn vibrate the strings, which ends up affecting the sound at the pickup....

In case you think this would be a negligible effect, play your bass unplugged. Quite a lot of vibration comes through the body, right? now plug it in and instead of plucking a string, give the body a tap with the knuckles in various places. A surprising amount of energy gets back into the strings...

Of course it's a huge leap from that to saying that you could predict the plugged-in sound of a bass from its acoustic tone. After all, the acoustic sound you hear is the energy that's being lost from the system...

[RonniePudding]

Originally Posted by topo morto

It's not quite that simple though - the vibrations in the strings get transmitted into the neck and body, which shake around and in turn vibrate the strings ... now plug it in and instead of plucking a string, give the body a tap with the knuckles in various places. A surprising amount of energy gets back into the strings....

Aren't you talking about characteristics that lend better sustain? Or maybe you're talking about resonance, which to my mind is arguably relevant to tone (though difficult to hear unplugged!) and a different thing from sustain. I suppose it depends on how you define tone, which could be open to some interpretation.

Originally Posted by topo morto

Of course it's a huge leap from that to saying that you could predict the plugged-in sound of a bass from its acoustic tone. After all, the acoustic sound you hear is the energy that's being lost from the system...

^ This is pretty much the point I was trying to make above. The Steinberger example earlier on, and the Ubass example, I think illustrate this well.

[Melonthief]

Maybe not a direct answer but an anecdote- yesterday I had a chance to play a gorgeous Warwick Ketana.
Unplugged it was like a dream as far as playability, loudness and just all around feel and tone. Plugged it in and I could not find a useable tone. Either too brassy with no definition, or too tinny with no balls or a mushy midrange mess. I spent only about 20 minutes with it, but I can find a useable tone quickly on basses that sound less awesome unplugged.

[topo morto]

Originally Posted by RonniePudding

Aren't you talking about characteristics that lend better sustain? Or maybe you're talking about resonance, which to my mind is arguably relevant to tone (though difficult to hear unplugged!) and a different thing from sustain.

My assumption is that that the body would resonate more at certain frequencies, and that those vibrations would be transmitted between the strings and the rest of the instrument more at different frequencies, changing the tone somewhat as the note decays. How measurable / audible this effect would be, I really have no idea. I am very suspicious of people who bang on about tonewoods without considering (as mentioned) sponge material, state of screw threads, pull of the pickup magnets on the strings, etc...

[ThirtyOver]

If the acoustic sound of an entirely meant to be "electric" bass guitar meant much....you could do shows by putting a mic in front of your bass and running thru the amp that way. If the sound isn't good enough to be amplified second hand and used without EQ it is not a reliable measure of anything. About the only thing you can tell playing an unplugged bass is whether the strings are too bright or too warm for you. A measure btw that changes entirely depending on which type of strings you put on. You could take a 3000 dollar bass with top of the line stuff in and on it....throw some 5 dollar Bazooka Joe Bass Strings on it and it will sound acoustically like crap tied together with fishing string.

[4001]

My Rickenbacker 4001's sound like Rickenbacker 4001's without even plugging in. The 'sound' resonates through the wood and yeah, it does sound like a Ric even unplugged.

[Brad Johnson]

The vast majority of basses that I've owned/played that sounded great (not just good) sounded that way unplugged. I'm not a fan of electronics that override the acoustic sound of electric basses. I test basses out unplugged and play/practice that way quite often. So do lots of people that I know.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by Lorenzop

If a bass sounds good just played unplugged / acoustically, should it therefore sound good plugged in?

And if it doesn't then is it a PU issue?

That has been my experience.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by khutch

So to what do I attribute the extreme tonal changes that are often claimed here for wood choices? The placebo effect. The type of foam that is used underneath the pickups potentially has as much affect on the relative motion and therefore the tone as the woods the bass is made from and as I say, no one here ever talks about, notes, or controls for that. Now this is not to say that certain woods and construction details do not have enough effect to be audible. They may have a large enough effect to be detectable, if not by all then by some. But to call them huge is just wrong in my opinion and the few experiments that have been conducted here, flawed as they may be, seem to bear this out.

I'm sure people think they hear things that aren't there. Especially when they've spent a lot of cash. But my experience is that tonewood DOES make a difference. It's not imaginary. If that weren't true then solid body and semi-hollow body basses would sound exactly alike. They don't.

But usually in less extreme cases differences are small, but they still might be important to you. I really like the sounds of my ash body basses compared to say my Squier agathis body. Not huge but I can tell the tonal difference. Probably nobody else could tell.

But as for the original question of "unplugged" resonances I've played enough basses to be able to tell things just by feeling the vibes as you play it. In particular, I've noticed that certain Squiers have this sort of "clanky" sound unpluged that is usually a bad sign when it comes to plugged in tone. After a while you just recognize it. On the other hand it seems that every bass that turned out to be one I enjoyed living with for years always seems to have a sort hard to describe "solid" feel to the neck when you play it. Again you just sort of recognize it after a while. And other resonances you need to check are dead spots. Unplugged you can actually feel the neck vibrating at the "dead spot" note. Plugged in you get the usual dead spot disaster. This is why when testing basses I always play EVERY note on the neck listening for sustain and resonance both plugged and unplugged.

There is no magic formula here, but after a while you start to spot the indicators for some of these common problems.