love of Ampeg and other Scroll Basses

[nouroog]

Couldn't you make a special super AMB-2, with the shorter radius fingerboard and beautifully carved headstock of the AUB-2 neck, and the thinner, lighter body of the AMB-2, equipped with the four cluster M-pickup to match the radius, but without the P-pickup?
Or would there be a mismatch of scale length? Maybe not for a fretless? Ah there'd be some issue with the bridge and tail piece too. Mmmh, looks like a bad idea.

[Bruce Johnson]

JumboD;

The interchangeable neck thing would be impractical to do to an existing Series IV instrument, like your #070. It would cost you almost as much as buying a second instrument. If you really, really wanted it, I would finish off #075 as a right hander with the two interchangeable necks, and then sell it to you, taking #070 back in trade. That would be the practical thing from a technical standpoint.

But, I can't do that for financial reasons. It's not that much more work for me to finish off what I have as two separate basses, and I can sell those two for a lot more than I can get for one bass with two necks.

I was seriously losing money on #075 as it was. I would have to charge around $6200 for a Series IV model with the interchangeable necks, to reasonably cover the work. A Series IV neck, in bare wood, costs me about $1800 in labor (mostly) and materials. When you put in the paint, the extra hardware, the case for the spare neck, etc., it adds up quickly.

In comparison, if I build up the parts as two basses, I can (hopefully) sell them for around $4000 each.

I want to abandon the interchangeable neck thing. I've figured out how to do it technically, but it doesn't make sense practically or financially.

Nouroog;

Yeah, I suppose I could build that combination, but why? I think that most players who would want the Series IV's longer scale length and 4" radius, would also want the P-pickup. They go together, for that style of playing. Customers who don't want the percussive P-pickup thing will probably be happier with the AMB-2's geometry. Besides, I already have one complete P-pickup finished and waiting, plus enough spare parts that I can easily put together a second. And I still have all of the fixtures and tooling for making the Series IV bodies and pickguards. I don't want to have to do any fresh engineering and tooling. I have enough new projects to do that on already!

[jumbodbassman]

I am better off just getting either the fretboard changed or getting another bass. Probably will decide later after the AMB is in the arsenal.

[Bruce Johnson]

Originally Posted by jumbodbassman

I am better off just getting either the fretboard changed or getting another bass. Probably will decide later after the AMB is in the arsenal.

Yes, definitely. I can convert #070 to fretless for about $250. Then with a Series IV fretless AUB-2, a fretted AMB-2, an SSB, and a few vintage Ampegs, you'll have things completely covered!

To me:
The AMB-2 is the bass for a Rock or Country or heavy Blues gig. Where there's drums, noise, smoke, beer, etc.

The Series IV fretless AUB-2 is what you take into the studio, or to quieter gigs like light jazz, bluegrass, acoustic Blues or Country/Western. Where you want to be the cool, smooth upright bass player in the background.

The SSB is for any gig or rehearsal longer than 3 hours! That's how I use mine. It has the same approximate sound as a Scroll Bass, but it's a little smaller, lighter, and more comfortable to play in a long, tedious session.

The vintage Ampegs are for fun get-togethers with old musician friends, where we spend half the time talking about instruments, and the other half playing familiar songs badly. With beer and cookies.

Last year, the lead singer and guitarist of my long-time bluegrass band went in for a heart transplant. He was out of the band for about 7 months. During that time, I had to take over most of the lead vocal duties, where I normally sing Baritone/Bass harmony parts. It was a lot of heavy rehearsing, with me trying to learn to sing the melody. During that time I mostly played SSB #001. It allowed me to play simple bass lines without thinking about them, while I concentrated on the singing. And remembering the lyrics! Anyway, Steve is now back with his new heart, and doing fine. Amazing technology. He's still a little low on endurance, but he's doing okay singing and playing. And I'm back to playing old #060, my beloved Series IV fretless AUB-2. The SSB was fun and did its job well for six months, but #060 is still the bass I most enjoy playing. It's been my main bass since 2006.

I also played SSB #001 quite a bit with my Blues band last year. I've been doing more singing with them too. It was great and comfortable to play on a crowded stage with all the noise and sweaty old Blues guys. As soon as AMB-2 #001 is finished, it will probably become my main bass with that band. I played several gigs with them last year using AEB-2 #019, one of my early Series II models from 1998. That bass is actually a lot like the AMB-2, and spending some time playing #019 on stage last year helped influence some decisions as I was designing and developing the AMB-2.

[nouroog]

I've spent some time now playing AEB-2 #074, and thinking it over. Now reading what you said Bruce, it settles my mind and I think when I'm a little wealthy again, I'll follow Jumbod's footsteps.
#074 is amazing and I love it like crazy, but I see now how those Series IV really deserve to be unfretted to fully express their nature.
You said it many times, Bruce, but I had to experience it for myself. So my project now is to ask you someday for a fretted AMB-2, and somehow to have #074 converted to fretless, with the partial lines like on SSB #008 (but on the E side only).
The problem is I won't let anybody but Bruce make the conversion on #074, so the distance make the project harder to achieve, but I'm pretty sure I'll do it eventually.
I've sold now about every piece of equipment I could emotionaly part with (and worth a buck), so it'll take some time and savings. But meanwhile I get to play #074, so I'm just as happy as I can be
I am lucky enough to own now SSB #008, the white fretless one.
It's really a fun and tasteful not-so-little bass, and through the B15N it has a rejoicing creamy and bluesy tone.
It has a bit of neckdive, but it's very comfortable to play and light as a feather.
I just regret that it's not equipped with Bruce's designed pickup. I like the tone of the SD, but I could use some more humbucking, and I've got a feeling I'd like Bruce's pickup's tone better.
Bruce, would it be possible that you make, sell and send me one of your pickup system for SSBs?
Is it a mod I can make myself, of does it require some modification on the instrument?
Last question: rather than white, SSB #008's finish has a nice yellowish creamy tone, not very even across the body and sides. Is it normal? (I like it)

[Bruce Johnson]

Nouroog;

Yes, the Series IV's really work better as fretless basses. I'll have to check my records, but I think that only four of the 16 that I've built are still fretted. Your #074 and JumboD's #070 are two of them. I converted #073 in 2011, and one other before that. Whenever you want to do the conversion, you can just send me the neck. Disassembly, reassembly and setup on these basses is actually fairly easy, and I can talk you through any questions. Same for you, JumboD. Whenever you want to do the conversion, you can send just the neck.

I'm glad that you are enjoying SSB #008. I had some fun playing it myself at several rehearsals, and for a while I was thinking about keeping it. It's the first fretless SSB I've built, and the only one at the moment. However, I've just started construction on #010, which is fretless.

SSB #008 and SSB #009 both ended up with one peculiar feature. Their scale length is 0.600" longer than standard for my SSB's. It's 31.1" scale rather than 30.5" scale. This happened because I screwed up during the construction of those two necks. At one point, I misread my notes and made a pencil mark in reference to the wrong line. The slots for the brass bars that are inset in the heel got milled in the wrong location. Aaargh! (An expression of technical frustration). By the time I discovered the problem, the necks were fairly far along, and the fingerboards were glued on. I didn't want to waste two good necks and two good pieces of ebony. So, I did what all good engineers do, and adjusted the design to fit! So, those two instruments ended up at 31.1" scale length and, yes, the dots and lines and frets (on #009) are all correct for that scale length. Those two are oddballs, sort of halfway between short scale and medium scale. It's not really much of a difference, but I thought I'd mention it in case you ever measure it and get curious. Yes, even us veteran Luthiers make mistakes and try to hide them.

You mentioned the slight neck-heavy feel. I've noticed that too, on all four of the SSB's I've built recently (#006-#009). The first five, #001-#005 balanced nicely. The main reason it changed is that the poplar that I'm using on the bodies now is a bit lighter than the ash I had been using. I had anticipated this, and added a little extra brass to the bars that are embedded in the body under the bridge. But I guess it isn't quite enough. I'm going to add a little more counterweight to #010 and get that corrected. I can talk you through some ways that you can add a bit of counterweight to #008 if you want to fix it.

The slightly creamish color of the body of #008 wasn't intentional. Painting an instrument solid bright white is actually harder than you'd think. I was having some trouble with the pigments, getting them to mix properly in the paint base. It wasn't coming out like I wanted. I think that was the third try at the color coats, and it was a little off-white. I was going to try again, but the customer, Juan, stopped in and saw it. He said that he liked it, and to leave it like that. So, I finished it off with the clear coats. It has a bit of an aged look.

The first of the new SSB pickups will be going into #009 and #010 in about a month. These pickups use the same coils that I use in the AMB-2 pickup, but cast into different housings. They are intended to be a bolt-in replacement for the current pickups with the Duncan coils. So, yes, as soon as I get a few made and tested out, I can sell you a set and you can swap them in yourself. A couple of screws and two wires to solder.

[jumbodbassman]

Originally Posted by Bruce Johnson

Yes, definitely. I can convert #070 to fretless for about $250. Then with a Series IV fretless AUB-2, a fretted AMB-2, an SSB, and a few vintage Ampegs, you'll have things completely covered!

To me:
The AMB-2 is the bass for a Rock or Country or heavy Blues gig. Where there's drums, noise, smoke, beer, etc.

The Series IV fretless AUB-2 is what you take into the studio, or to quieter gigs like light jazz, bluegrass, acoustic Blues or Country/Western. Where you want to be the cool, smooth upright bass player in the background.

The SSB is for any gig or rehearsal longer than 3 hours! That's how I use mine. It has the same approximate sound as a Scroll Bass, but it's a little smaller, lighter, and more comfortable to play in a long, tedious session.

The vintage Ampegs are for fun get-togethers with old musician friends, where we spend half the time talking about instruments, and the other half playing familiar songs badly. With beer and cookies.

Last year, the lead singer and guitarist of my long-time bluegrass band went in for a heart transplant. He was out of the band for about 7 months. During that time, I had to take over most of the lead vocal duties, where I normally sing Baritone/Bass harmony parts. It was a lot of heavy rehearsing, with me trying to learn to sing the melody. During that time I mostly played SSB #001. It allowed me to play simple bass lines without thinking about them, while I concentrated on the singing. And remembering the lyrics! Anyway, Steve is now back with his new heart, and doing fine. Amazing technology. He's still a little low on endurance, but he's doing okay singing and playing. And I'm back to playing old #060, my beloved Series IV fretless AUB-2. The SSB was fun and did its job well for six months, but #060 is still the bass I most enjoy playing. It's been my main bass since 2006.

I also played SSB #001 quite a bit with my Blues band last year. I've been doing more singing with them too. It was great and comfortable to play on a crowded stage with all the noise and sweaty old Blues guys. As soon as AMB-2 #001 is finished, it will probably become my main bass with that band. I played several gigs with them last year using AEB-2 #019, one of my early Series II models from 1998. That bass is actually a lot like the AMB-2, and spending some time playing #019 on stage last year helped influence some decisions as I was designing and developing the AMB-2.

Bruce don't forget I still have dibs on one of the first devil basses when they finally get done. I won't mention how long we have been discussing that bass. Depending on how i like the AMB that will probably close the loop on getting #70 fretless (with the small lines on top also like my bud from france) and then i can stay fretted on the devil bass with mystery pickup that i would be losing. Everything covered..
I do a fair amount of singing and most of the high harmony parts so fretless and facing/looking at microphones is a formula for disaster at times.

I havent used the SSB on a gig yet as i just never think about it. think it's coming to rehearsal tonight....

Any pictures of the four finished AMB bodies for us to drool over???

[nouroog]

Bruce;
I'm glad to know I'll have to send you just the neck to convert #074 to fretless. It will make things easier. Now I'll start saving for an AMB-2.
About SSB #008, I understand better the color and neckdive, thanks. I actually really like the color, like Juan. It does have a cool vintage vibe. I would not trade it for a solid true white. If that tint comes from the original pigment mix, it should now be stable over time and stay that way, no?
The neck dive is not too much of a discomfort, but since the bass is really light, I'd be interested to know about the ways to correct it by counterweight.
It's a funny story how it ended up being a 31.1" scale length. Although "funny" might not be the word, as that "Aaargh!" moment must have been really frustrating.
Does that change in scale had an incidence on where the bridge stands? When setting the intonation to my liking I had to position the saddles quite far back on the bridge.
Also, when I played the bass at first, I had a strange ring coming from the bridge when playing the G string. So I put all the strings aside and took the bridge out. It came out with no effort. It looks like it's sitting on two threaded poles that stand in the wood underneath. I did not see the brass bars embedded in the body under the bridge. Is the bridge linked to those bars somehow?
It ended up that the ring was coming from the D string my right hand finger was hitting after playing the G, that was vibrating on or after its saddle. I never really could isolate it. Anyway, it disappeared after repositioning the bridge a little higher.
I'll definitely be in for a SSB pickup when they are ready.
Now I'm with Jumbod and would love to drool over some AMB-2 pics.

[Bruce Johnson]

JumboD;

Yep, you are booked in for Devil Bass #003. I'm keeping #001 as my own player/demonstrator. #002 is going to our friend in Mississippi with the huge Ampeg collection. He was actually in line ahead of you, many years ago!

I'm making Devil Bass #001 fretted, too. If this new percussive pickup works out like I hope, the Devil Bass should be a fun multi-purpose bass. Its body will be all maple, so it will be somewhat brighter than the comparable Series V AEB-2/AUB-2, and definitely brighter and punchier than your #070. But it will have a serious percussive thump, too. And 28 frets. The crowd will go quiet and take a step back when you walk on stage with it.

Yes, spend some time with SSB #005. The more I play my own #001, the more I appreciate what a cool bass it is. It is a nice stage bass when you have to sing on a crowded stage. The long banana headstock will keep them back!

[Bruce Johnson]

Nouroog;

About the odd scale length on SSB #008: Due to my mistake, the neck ended up being exactly 0.500" too long from the nut to the heel. I didn't change anything on the body or the position of the bridge to correct for it. I just recalculated what the scale length would need to be to fit the actual distance from the nut to the bridge. It came out to be 31.1" scale, so I positioned all of the frets, lines, and marker dots to that scale length. It helps that I have a special fret saw machine that I can set up to do any scale length.

About the bridges: All of my Scroll Basses and SSB's use a similar design of bridge. The bridge is supported on two vertical jacking screws, and it is designed so that it can rock forward and backward on the points of the jacking screws. This is actually an important part of the sound of my basses. When you pluck the string, the bridge physically wiggles front to back a tiny bit. This creates some extra warmth and little overtones on the note.

Attached are pictures of a Series IV bridge and the jacking screws. The SSB and AMB-2 bridges are similar. You can see that I machine the tip of the jacking screw down to a smaller diameter at the end, and then to a small cone at the tip. A slice of silicone rubber tubing fits over the thin section of the jacking screw, but the cone tip is exposed.

Down in the body are a pair of brass or aluminum bars. They are set into routed grooves in a bed of epoxy before the top and back go together. At the back end of the bars are threaded holes that the tailpieces bolt down to. At the forward end of the bars are a pair of drilled sockets. The jacking screws fit down into those sockets. The cone tips are in solid contact with the bottoms of the sockets, and the bridge rocks about those two points of contact. The jacking screws don't actually touch the wood. The bridge, the bars, and the tailpieces are all in solid metal-to-metal contact.

The silicone rubber sleeves fit down into the sockets and do two things: They hold the bridge up vertical, providing some springy cushioning to the rocking motion. They also provide some gripping friction on the jacking screws, so that the bridge doesn't fall off when you take the strings off.

To any of you who own my basses: You can remove the bridge easily by lifting it up and pulling it out of the sockets. Usually, the silicone rubber sleeves will stay down in the sockets, and you'll just see the thin ends of the jacking screws. When you reinsert the bridge, make sure the ends of the jacking screws push down through the sleeves and make solid contact against the bottoms of the sockets. If one of the sleeves falls out, put it back in and use something to push it down into the bottom of the socket. If you lose one, the sleeves are slices of common 1/4" OD x 1/8" ID silicone rubber tubing.

On the Series IV's it's a little more complicated. Instead of the bars embedded in the body, the sockets for the jacking screws are in an aluminum block, which is at the center of a springy frame with piano wire rods. So the Series IV's bridge doesn't just rock front to back. It also bounces up and down and rolls side to side. The original Ampeg mystery pickup has motion in one dimension. The Series IV pickup is 3-D. The upcoming Series V percussive pickup is 2-D.

That's how my bridges work. Another of many little engineering marvels.

[Stephent28]

Hey Bruce,
If you remember our phone convo from about a month ago, I got on the list for the Devil Bass (thinking was #5 or 6). We also discussed having the dual fretted/unfretted option. Sound like the dual neck option is dead? Or was that just for the other model.

[nouroog]

Thank you Bruce for the explanation.
I had guessed most of it but I was wondering about how the bottom tips of the jacking screws were interacting with the brass bars, that I couldn't see at the bottom of the holes. Now I understand it fully.
When I pulled the bridge out, the silicone rubber sleeves actually came with, and stayed seated around the tip of the jacking screws, so the bridge went back easily in.
How do those silicone parts evolve with time? Do they dry out and loose their spring, and need to be changed?

[Bruce Johnson]

A quick news flash:

I just heard from Juan Perez (who you know as Lorena1 on this thread), and his band Quetzal won a Grammy for the album Imaginaries; Best Latin Rock, Urban, or Alternative Album. Big congrats to them and him! Juan is a good friend and customer, and has owned several of my basses. His main bass these days is one of my SSB's, #007. If I understood him correctly, he played it at the awards ceremony on Sunday. He's also the original owner of Nouroog's fretless SSB #008, and will soon be taking delivery of AMB-2 #002.

He normally plays bass with Quetzal, from what I understand. But on the band's web site, there is a video of them in the studio performing the title song, and it looks like Juan is playing a cool cigar-box guitar, while one of the other members is playing bass?? Maybe he'll explain.

Congrats again, Juan!

[nouroog]

Wow that's great news!
Congratulations to Juan and the whole band!
I hope we can see a little video of Quetzal performing at the ceremony, with Juan playing SSB #007?

[Bruce Johnson]

Nouroog;

I use silicone rubber tubing specifically because it's the longest lasting of any of the "rubber tubing" materials that I know of. Supposedly it will last 25 years or more, as long as it isn't excessively stressed or exposed to some chemicals. That's why it's used in medical and laboratory equipment. I use it three places on my basses: the bridge jacking screws, the bridge saddle springs, and the pickup height adjusting springs. I like to use it in place of metal springs, because it can't buzz! There are also slices of it over the spring rods in the Series IV P-pickup, providing some damping.

The tubing should last many years, but if you ever need a replacement for any of those parts, it's a common size: 1/4" OD x 1/8" ID. It's available from many industrial suppliers. I get it from McMasters here in the US. It's also sold in some hobby shops as the higher grade fuel line for model airplane engines. Silicone rubber tubing is a transparent whitish color, and is fairly expensive. The cheaper tan or brown tubing that is often included with pickups is latex, which only lasts a couple of years in use. I don't use that in my basses.

[nouroog]

Thank you Bruce.
I was considering buying some of that silicone tubing, because when I set the intonation on SSB #008, I moved the saddles far back on the bridge, and so there's not contact left between the saddle and the silicone.
But I'm thinking now it doesn't really matter, and I'm probably going to leave it that way.

[Bruce Johnson]

Yes, that should be fine. The silicone tubing doesn't need to be squashed between the saddle and the front of the notch in the bridge. It's a fairly tight fit on the screw threads, and it presses down on the bottom of the notch. It's just there to keep the screw from vibrating loose and buzzing.

By the way, that bridge is just polished aluminum. It's not chrome plated. It should stay shiny for a long time, but if it ever gets dull, you can shine it back up with a rag and some metal polish. I like the Flitz polish. Is that available in France? That's what I use to polish my Euphonium!

The tailpieces are chrome plated aluminum, and should never need any polishing. I don't chrome plate the bridges, because side-to-side fit of the saddles is really important. Plating the bridge would screw up the tolerances, and I'd have to hand fit each saddle. So, I polish up the outer surfaces of the bridge, and brush-finish the saddles.

[jumbodbassman]

Originally Posted by jumbodbassman

Bruce don't forget I still have dibs on one of the first devil basses when they finally get done. I won't mention how long we have been discussing that bass. Depending on how i like the AMB that will probably close the loop on getting #70 fretless (with the small lines on top also like my bud from france) and then i can stay fretted on the devil bass with mystery pickup that i would be losing. Everything covered..
I do a fair amount of singing and most of the high harmony parts so fretless and facing/looking at microphones is a formula for disaster at times.

I havent used the SSB on a gig yet as i just never think about it. think it's coming to rehearsal tonight....

Any pictures of the four finished AMB bodies for us to drool over???

i used the SSB at rehearsal the other night. It sounds HUGE. More of a bluesy type band so I put the active bass away and went with the SSB with the flats. was really loving it. drummer even commented on how full its sounded. Singer was late so i sang first hour or so and i was loving the short scale while singing. Bruce how does the new pickup sound compared to the SD3.

[Bruce Johnson]

Hah! It's funny, because that's exactly how Juan describes his SSB: It sounds HUGE! That should be my advertising sloagan; the little bass with the HUGE sound. I've been trying to get him to explain what he means by sounding huge. I think that it means that it has a very even level over the whole main frequency range. You can always hear some of it in the mix. Plus, it's very dynamic. You can really hear it and feel it when you hit notes a little harder or softer. Is that what you mean? I'm curious.

There are four key things that make the SSB sound the way it does:

1.) The neck is fairly springy, but it has my special truss rod, which is set deep in the neck and fully cast in epoxy.

2.) The body is soft, with a lot of internal chambering in the center area.

3.) I paid special attention to securely anchoring the hardware to the wood at the nut, neck/body joint, bridge, and tailpieces. It's all metal epoxied into wood, with lots of contacting surface area.

4.) The pickup is powerful, and wired into a very simple passive circuit.

The first three structural things are made to emphasize the sound of flatwound strings. Rich low-mids, warm highs, and clarity at both ends. The pickup system is for dynamics.

All of these features are built into all of my Scroll Basses too. The SSB is the simplest example of how I build my basses. The other models add in other things. I expect that the AMB-2 will sound very much like the SSB, but with some more string tension from the longer scale length.

I don't know yet what the new SSB pickup will sound like, in comparison to the existing Duncan SDQP. I haven't finished SSB #009 yet! The body and neck are painted and hanging in the rack, and the pickup is on the bench. I've been too busy finishing the AMB-2's and a couple of the restorations.

The sound should be similar, but more. It's the same general kind of pickup, but with more powerful magnets and a narrower, tighter coil. That should give it an even higher passive output level, with even more dynamics and clarity. My only worry is that it might be too much; I might have gone too far. If so, I can back off.

The coils are the same as in the AMB-2. So, I'm going to be real interested to hear your opinion of AMB-2 #004 vs SSB #005. That will be a good test. That's part of why I encouraged you to play around with the SSB right now, to get familiar with it. If you like the sound of the AMB-2 significantly better than your SSB, then I can send you a set of the new pickups to swap into SSB #005.

It's been a steady stream of interruptions and delays, but I think I'm finally going to be stringing up the first couple of AMB-2's this week. Man, it's been a long haul, and I have so many things and people just waiting for these AMB-2's to be done! I sure hope they work (grin)!!!

[jumbodbassman]

Bruce i think you said it perfectly. the SSB really brings out everything that the flats offer. much more so than any of my vintage basses, even my old fenders. To me the fenders sound like i just rolled off the tone knob some and always feels like something is trapped and i am not getting its all. treble rolled off and boomy on the low end. not on the SSB, awesome clarity at both ends. i will have to fiddle around more but i think it even sounds better/bigger than the magnetic pickup on the AEB #70 by itself. obviously a different issue when you start to blend the p pup...then i whole new dynamic takes over.

speaking of the SSB circuit. the tone control works on both outputs, only the volume cuts out on the direct out. was that intentional or did the prior owner fiddle with the circuit????

rehearsal tonight with my blues, lead singer project. #5 is coming along....
JD