"Made in _____" ???

[rockchalkbass]

People always focus on the assembly skills and QA, but that ignore more than half the difference. Its the parts. Fender (and others) have very carefully scaled the quality of the bass ingredients to the country of origin. As you move up the scale of country of origin, they add higher and higher grades of bridges, tuners, pickups, switches, wood, etc. So even if you are passionately convinced that Indonesian or chinese assembly and QA are every bit as good as american or german it still doesn't overcome the objectively massive difference in the quality of the ingredients.

If fender, et al were turning out ash-bodied bases with their latest and greatest electronics, best hardware, high mass bridges, etc in Indonesia than this conversation might fundamentally change.

But they're not.

[awilkie84]

Originally Posted by georgestrings

Had you made the "for a similar price" qualifier the first time, I'd have no disagreement with you - but that's not what you said...


- georgestrings

Why should that be a factor? What a luthier/company decides to charge has no real bearing on the quality. I could go into business tomorrow and offer an $1800 Jazz Bass with an active EQ. It wouldn't be on par with a Fender Deluxe, but by that logic it's comparable.

Originally Posted by rockchalkbass

People always focus on the assembly skills and QA, but that ignore more than half the difference. Its the parts. Fender (and others) have very carefully scaled the quality of the bass ingredients to the country of origin. As you move up the scale of country of origin, they add higher and higher grades of bridges, tuners, pickups, switches, wood, etc. So even if you are passionately convinced that Indonesian or chinese assembly and QA are every bit as good as american or german it still doesn't overcome the objectively massive difference in the quality of the ingredients.

If fender, et al were turning out ash-bodied bases with their latest and greatest electronics, best hardware, high mass bridges, etc in Indonesia than this conversation might fundamentally change.

But they're not.

Except that you could take a Squier VM, throw aftermarket parts of equal quality as the Fender MIA stuff on & still be in it for under $1000. The only difference would be the potential quality differences in the body/neck woods.

[rockchalkbass]

[quote="awilkie8

Except that you could take a Squier VM, throw aftermarket parts of equal quality as the Fender MIA stuff on & still be in it for under $1000. The only difference would be the potential quality differences in the body/neck woods.[/QUOTE]


At that point are you playing an Indonesian fender or are you playing a piece of wood that once happened to be in Indonesia?

I get the legitimacy of the point about value proposition. But if you are talking about entirely rebuilding the bass does it really support the argument of those who claim a squier VM and fender amdlx are inherently equalish in initial quality?

[Templar]

Originally Posted by awilkie84

Except that you could take a Squier VM, throw aftermarket parts of equal quality as the Fender MIA stuff on & still be in it for under $1000. The only difference would be the potential quality differences in the body/neck woods.

"Only"? When did quality of wood become not important?

People frequently "mod" their inexpensive guitars with better parts. Presumably to bring the level of quality of said guitar up closer to that of the genuine article. Quality that is not there in the inexpensive guitar to begin with.

[1stnamebassist]

Here is something else to think about. I don't know this for a fact, i'm just throwing this out there. I believe a lot of the big name amp makers are producing amps overseas also. I don't know the numbers but if they are and your using their amps but buying American made guitars because you want to support American workers, you may want to get rid of those amps! Along with just about everything you have in your possession! Its unfortunate but manufacturing is pretty much becoming a thing of the past in this country. Seems like just about everything is manufactured outside this country. I bet even most of our effects, cables, straps, picks, everything.

[Bongolation]

These are more or less valid points as far as they go, which falls short of what's going on in terms of grade of materials within MIA hierarchy -- always subject to change and temporary swapping around at the factory -- occasionally to your (largely unwitting) advantage or disadvantage.

Never mind essential differences in contracted production routine.

These are matters totally off consumer radar.

Components are a matter of expense over value. Like numerous other experts here, I don't like or use some of the "upgraded" hardware and regard most of it for what it actually is: A marketing con, a way to disproportionally increase selling price relative to production costs, to little or no practical advantage and occasional practical disadvantage. Change for change sake, "NEW! IMPROVED! SHINY! FANCY!" shuck and jive to fascinate willing bubbas and obsessive geardos.

As a production manager at FMIC once told me, "It's not where it's made, it's how it's made," and that's the bottom line.

The other bottom line: If you want quality, buy domestic-market Japanese production.

The Japanese make the best production instruments in the world, and that's not because nobody else is capable of it, but because nobody else has as demanding and educated a consumer base. As I always say, producers believe quality in excess of consumer expectation is waste, and alone in the world, the Japanese won't buy crap (thank Deming).

Otherwise, educate yourself and shop hard. Really, really hard, because as I said in the last century, it getting increasingly difficult to get a really bad or really good instrument at any price.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by 1stnamebassist

Here is something else to think about. I don't know this for a fact, i'm just throwing this out there. I believe a lot of the big name amp makers are producing amps overseas also. I don't know the numbers but if they are and your using their amps but buying American made guitars because you want to support American workers, you may want to get rid of those amps! Along with just about everything you have in your possession! Its unfortunate but manufacturing is pretty much becoming a thing of the past in this country. Seems like just about everything is manufactured outside this country. I bet even most of our effects, cables, straps, picks, everything.

Well, when Ampeg set up shop in Viet Nam, there were plenty of ruffled feathers over it. Some things are sacred.

Effects. Yeah the budget stuff is no doubt all made abroad. The top notch pedals, not as much.

It's not just happening in the USA, but all over The West. So you guys outside the USA may feel somewhat immune for now, but don't forget....If WE go down, YOU go down.

I wonder how the nice fellow from The Land of Switzer would react if Rolex moved their entire manufacturing operation to say...India? Surely Indians can be trained as watchmakers, and then Every Man could afford a Rolex. Sound fair dinkum?

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by Templar

Effects. Yeah the budget stuff is no doubt all made abroad. The top notch pedals, not as much.

When you're selling some recycled, derivative effect circuit with 37¢ (or less) worth of imported Chinese board components for $289 bucks, you can afford to go crazy and actually pay somebody for putting it together.

If there's a bigger racket than analog effects, I can't imagine it.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by rockchalkbass

People always focus on the assembly skills and QA, but that ignore more than half the difference. Its the parts.

Yeah, thanks for saying it a bit more concisely than I did.

Then again, it's also about what parts are you really concerned about and willing to pay for? Do you really feel a difference in the USA-made Fender necks with carbon graphite rods? Do you really need that? Or do the contemporary MIM necks feel great to you? Do you need the upgraded high mass bridge? Or are you perfectly satisfied with the decades-old bent L? And do those components really affect ease of set up, playability, tone?

It's tough proving objectively that a $1.5K USA-made bass outplays a well-made, foreign-made $500.00 bass. That's why I avoid these debates and have a certain fascination for how strongly some people feel on both ends of the spectrum.

[EpiRipper]

Originally Posted by Templar

"Only"? When did quality of wood become not important?

People frequently "mod" their inexpensive guitars with better parts. Presumably to bring the level of quality of said guitar up closer to that of the genuine article. Quality that is not there in the inexpensive guitar to begin with.

... And people never mod MIA Fenders with better pickups, bridges and tuners. Or have to shim necks because of poor machining of the neck pocket.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

When you're selling some recycled, derivative effect circuit with 37¢ (or less) worth of imported Chinese board components for $289 bucks, you can afford to go crazy and actually pay somebody for putting it together.

Good point. Still, there are cheap components, and even cheaper ones. One would expect better quality parts inside a Fulltone pedal than a Beringer (sp?).

[Templar]

Originally Posted by EpiRipper

... And people never mod MIA Fenders with better pickups, bridges and tuners.

Sure, sometimes. But there is no need to try to elevate quality from excellent to boutique level. When you reach a certain level of quality there really isn't much room left for "improvement". It takes a quantum leap in price to see a really big difference.

Or have to shim necks because of poor machining of the neck pocket.

As if that's a common occurrence. Quite the opposite.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

Yeah, thanks for saying it a bit more concisely than I did.

Then again, it's also about what parts are you really concerned about and willing to pay for? Do you really feel a difference in the USA-made Fender necks with carbon graphite rods? Do you really need that? Or do the contemporary MIM necks feel great to you? Do you need the upgraded high mass bridge? Or are you perfectly satisfied with the decades-old bent L? And do those components really affect ease of set up, playability, tone?

It's tough proving objectively that a $1.5K USA-made bass outplays a well-made, foreign-made $500.00 bass. That's why I avoid these debates and have a certain fascination for how strongly some people feel on both ends of the spectrum.

I find it hard with Fender since the look, the finish, playability and even tone are so close. You don't have a debate like that with Ibanez or Spector etc where the cheap doesn't look, feel, have the same finish nor the same tone as their high end models ...

[hags2k]

Originally Posted by bmc

I'm not engaging.

Have fun.

I would really like to hear a follow-up. Like most US consumers, all I hear and read about are the factories like Foxconn and things like on-site dormitories, low wages, and workers putting in 2.5-3 times as many hours as an average US worker per week. What is not clear is if most and/or all manufacturing in china is like that, or if factories like that are exceptional in some way. If you have first or second-hand knowledge on the topic, I would love to hear more.

[tylerwylie]

Originally Posted by hags2k

I would really like to hear a follow-up. Like most US consumers, all I hear and read about are the factories like Foxconn and things like on-site dormitories, low wages, and workers putting in 2.5-3 times as many hours as an average US worker per week. What is not clear is if most and/or all manufacturing in china is like that, or if factories like that are exceptional in some way. If you have first or second-hand knowledge on the topic, I would love to hear more.

What you won't hear is that the reason the workers work in these factories is because the alternatives are worse. Many overseas "sweatshops" pay multiples over the national average wage.

Unfortunately there's no shortcut for a country to become wealthy, so raising productivity is the easiest way to raise the standard of living. This requires capital investment, an industrial revolution, etc. This will appear to us in wealthier countries to be 'slave labor' however it is necessary for them to be able to achieve a higher standard of living.

You will also see that countries that receive large amounts of foreign aid rarely see an increase in their standard of living whereas countries who may not have received as much 'charity' but have undergone an industrial revolution and have seen an increase in productivity and output have seen a huge growth in the middle class. Government intervention into the economy only serves to stifle this; though that will steer the discussion into something that will get this thread locked; however I can discuss via PM.

[hags2k]

Originally Posted by rockchalkbass

People always focus on the assembly skills and QA, but that ignore more than half the difference. Its the parts. Fender (and others) have very carefully scaled the quality of the bass ingredients to the country of origin. As you move up the scale of country of origin, they add higher and higher grades of bridges, tuners, pickups, switches, wood, etc. So even if you are passionately convinced that Indonesian or chinese assembly and QA are every bit as good as american or german it still doesn't overcome the objectively massive difference in the quality of the ingredients.

If fender, et al were turning out ash-bodied bases with their latest and greatest electronics, best hardware, high mass bridges, etc in Indonesia than this conversation might fundamentally change.

But they're not.

I think this is a very good point. I recently bought an MIA fender P because there were features and a finish option that I wanted, plus I love the case. If all the features were available on a MIM model... It might have gone differently.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by rockchalkbass

People always focus on the assembly skills and QA, but that ignore more than half the difference. Its the parts. Fender (and others) have very carefully scaled the quality of the bass ingredients to the country of origin. As you move up the scale of country of origin, they add higher and higher grades of bridges, tuners, pickups, switches, wood, etc. So even if you are passionately convinced that Indonesian or chinese assembly and QA are every bit as good as american or german it still doesn't overcome the objectively massive difference in the quality of the ingredients.

If fender, et al were turning out ash-bodied bases with their latest and greatest electronics, best hardware, high mass bridges, etc in Indonesia than this conversation might fundamentally change.

But they're not.

Yep. It would not make sense for Fender to dilute their American lines with foreign-made low-end stuff. They purposely do this in order to keep the balance in their company's product lines.

[hags2k]

Originally Posted by tylerwylie

What you won't hear is that the reason the workers work in these factories is because the alternatives are worse. Many overseas "sweatshops" pay multiples over the national average wage.

Unfortunately there's no shortcut for a country to become wealthy, so raising productivity is the easiest way to raise the standard of living. This requires capital investment, an industrial revolution, etc. This will appear to us in wealthier countries to be 'slave labor' however it is necessary for them to be able to achieve a higher standard of living.

I'm open to that possibility. I won't pretend to be qualified to judge anyone on this issue. Historically, there might be a case to be made for this view - looking back at the US industrial revolution, for example.

Still, I don't know if I feel comfortable stating flatly that "they're better off this way." It seems rather convenient. Doesn't mean it's wrong, it just makes me suspicious

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

Y
It's tough proving objectively that a $1.5K USA-made bass outplays a well-made, foreign-made $500.00 bass. That's why I avoid these debates and have a certain fascination for how strongly some people feel on both ends of the spectrum.

Blanket statements don't work, that's for sure.

I played/owned a couple 1989-90 Squier II P-basses for a short time. Probably one of the better sounding and feeling models I've played - and both for roughly $125 each it was a mind-blowing steal. I would definitely value these late 80's Korean models pretty highly. I'd bet most of it has to do with the pickups.

Conversely, until the late 2000's, most Indonesian and Chinese models of Squier generally sucked.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by bill reed

sorry I had not made that clear what I was on about.
I thought we were talking like for like but i see now that was not made clear.
my fault, sorry.

No problem...


- georgestrings