"Made in _____" ???

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by hags2k

I'm open to that possibility. I won't pretend to be qualified to judge anyone on this issue. Historically, there might be a case to be made for this view - looking back at the US industrial revolution, for example.

Still, I don't know if I feel comfortable stating flatly that "they're better off this way." It seems rather convenient. Doesn't mean it's wrong, it just makes me suspicious

Eventually, they will all gain workers' rights and their wages will go up. This whole "cheap overseas" deal won't last much longer. Chinese workers are already groaning for more rights. If the US lasts long enough, we'll be able to regain many jobs because the pendulum will swing back.

[tylerwylie]

Originally Posted by hags2k

I'm open to that possibility. I won't pretend to be qualified to judge anyone on this issue. Historically, there might be a case to be made for this view - looking back at the US industrial revolution, for example.

Still, I don't know if I feel comfortable stating flatly that "they're better off this way." It seems rather convenient. Doesn't mean it's wrong, it just makes me suspicious

It's quite obvious that there are powers at work attempting to prevent or keep overseas workers in the conditions they are in and to prevent a well educated large middle class from forming; however these are political forces and not market forces. But not supporting overseas workers because you are opposed to labor practices and conditions will only worsen their ability to overcome poverty.

[tylerwylie]

Originally Posted by michael_atw

Eventually, they will all gain workers' rights and their wages will go up. This whole "cheap overseas" deal won't last much longer. Chinese workers are already groaning for more rights. If the US lasts long enough, we'll be able to regain many jobs because the pendulum will swing back.

I've read reports and arguments that the Chinese government is quite scared and will soon be pulling all stops to do whatever necessary to maintain their power over the Chinese economy. A transition is about to take place and we will see what this will do for the Chinese workers. I wish the best for them.

[George Mann]

Originally Posted by StuartV

It would be a gross generalization (i.e. LOTS of exceptions), but it seems to be widely held that going down the pecking order from US made, you would have Made in Japan, then Made in Mexico and at the same level Made in Indonesia, then below those Made in China (and Made in Korea).

In other words, other than made in the US or Japan, Indonesia generally (again, a very broad generalization) seems to be consistently as good quality as you can get.

It is the Korean-made instruments that more-or-less compete with the Mexican-made, followed by Chinese, then Indonesian.

The Japanese instruments are often the best in their price-class.

[tylerwylie]

Originally Posted by George Mann

It is the Korean-made instruments that more-or-less compete with the Mexican-made, followed by Chinese, then Indonesian.

The Japanese instruments are often the best in their price-class.

Indonesia has some good quality instruments coming out of there too though; I believe the Ibanez Premium, Sterling by Music Man, and some of the other mid range Ibanez basses come out of there (Ibanez GVB36, Ibanez GWB35).

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by awilkie84

Why should that be a factor? What a luthier/company decides to charge has no real bearing on the quality. I could go into business tomorrow and offer an $1800 Jazz Bass with an active EQ. It wouldn't be on par with a Fender Deluxe, but by that logic it's comparable.



Except that you could take a Squier VM, throw aftermarket parts of equal quality as the Fender MIA stuff on & still be in it for under $1000. The only difference would be the potential quality differences in the body/neck woods.

Because without the "for a similar price" qualifier, the statement I refuted does not hold true:

"the quality is now as good as anything you can make in the USA and that why Fender and Gibson have had some models made in China and Korea."

Head to head, the stuff coming out of China and Korea is very good, but still not on par on average with US made instruments... I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand that, but it doesn't make things any different...

As for your 2nd paragraph - you can dress a Squier up as much as you want, but it will still never be as nice an instrument as an American Standard Fender... As I said before, lipstick on a pig... Truthfully, your posts in this thread strike me as being somewhat insecure, and trying to convince yourself(and others) that your Squiers are "just as good" as MIA Fenders... Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it sure looks that way...


- georgestrings

[George Mann]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

Do you really feel a difference in the USA-made Fender necks with carbon graphite rods?

Yes, absolutely, but they are also as heavy as you-know-what.

Do you really need that?

For those of us that prefer a stable, reliable neck, you bet!

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by George Mann

Yes, absolutely, but they are also as heavy as you-know-what.



For those of us that prefer a stable, reliable neck, you bet!

No argument here. My questions were purely rhetorical, and your answer is just as good as anyone elses.

But, for the sake of discussion, can you objectively prove that your American-made Fender neck with carbon graphite support rods is better than my 2010 Mexican made Fender neck with no rods, or that it makes your bass play or sound better than my MIM? I don't mean subjectively, as in "better for you," that goes without saying. I mean objectively.

This question fails blind listening tests time after time here on TB. And as I own both USA- and foreign-made Fenders, I can tell you I get a certain sense of security from the rods in my USA Fender necks, but my contemporary MIM necks (from about 2009 on) feel and play just as good, and feel just as stable, to me.

It's just not possible to prove one way or the other. That's the slippery slope that these discussions always take. It's a preference thing, purely personal, a matter of taste, peace of mind, jingoism, economics, pride, aesthetics, etc.

"Good," "better, and "best" have to be three of the most subjective words known to man.

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by Templar

Good point. Still, there are cheap components, and even cheaper ones. One would expect better quality parts inside a Fulltone pedal than a Beringer (sp?).

Not 15¢ worth of sourcing difference and no repeatable difference in sound at 9VDC.

More snakeoil, in production context.

Go here, source your parts on eBay and build about $2000 worth of magical "boutique" pedals for about $50.

[lowphatbass]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

No argument here. My questions were purely rhetorical, and your answer is just as good as anyone elses.

But, for the sake of discussion, can you objectively prove that your American-made Fender neck with carbon graphite support rods is better than my 2010 Mexican made Fender neck with no rods, or that it makes your bass play or sound better than my MIM? I don't mean subjectively, as in "better for you," that goes without saying. I mean objectively.

This question fails blind listening tests time after time here on TB.

It's just not possible to prove one way or the other. That's the slippery slope that these discussions always take. It's a preference thing, purely personal, a matter of taste, peace of mind, jingoism, economics, etc.

Exactly. To some, a MIA Fender bass is superior to MIM. Chances are, based on the market, more people feel that the MIA is "better for them". If they didn't prices would reflect much differently. There are those odd Fenders products that fetch much more of of premium based on performance rather than original sell price regardless of where they're made. For the most part, bass players are pretty well informed. To assume that the majority of bassists are wrong in choosing their prefeferences and paying a premium for no reason just doesn't make much sense to me. We all like what we like and play what we can afford, the most important thing is we like what we can afford.

[George Mann]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

No argument here. My questions were purely rhetorical, and your answer is just as good as anyone elses.

But, for the sake of discussion, can you objectively prove that your American-made Fender neck with carbon graphite support rods is better than my 2010 Mexican made Fender neck with no rods, or that it makes your bass play or sound better than my MIM? I don't mean subjectively, as in "better for you," that goes without saying. I mean objectively.

The Fender necks are more consistent over time physically, mechanically and tonally (with no dead spots).

These are not differences that one can appreciate in the short-term over a MIM model.

[Pet Sounds]

Originally Posted by guymanndude1

I tend to buy American, although I have some foreign instruments to, because I like to support the American worker first. I like to my part to say to my brothers and sisters out there, "I've got your back".
No hatred for anyone else's culture, just trying to do what I can to help at home first.

This.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

No argument here. My questions were purely rhetorical, and your answer is just as good as anyone elses.

But, for the sake of discussion, can you objectively prove that your American-made Fender neck with carbon graphite support rods is better than my 2010 Mexican made Fender neck with no rods, or that it makes your bass play or sound better than my MIM? I don't mean subjectively, as in "better for you," that goes without saying. I mean objectively.

This question fails blind listening tests time after time here on TB. And as I own both USA- and foreign-made Fenders, I can tell you I get a certain sense of security from the rods in my USA Fender necks, but my contemporary MIM necks (from about 2009 on) feel and play just as good, and feel just as stable, to me.

Is a carbon fiber reenforced neck better than a wood one? As always one has to define what you mean by "better". Does is sound better? Could you tell it in a classic double blind listening test? Of course not. But could a PLAYER tell the difference living with the basses for a while? Well you BET he can. I happen to own a MIM wood neck. It's a WONDERFUL neck. Prefect setup, stable, fast, perfect smooth feel, perfect balance, etc. Can I tell the difference with my Modulus full graphite neck? Hell yes. The graphite is so stable it doesn't even lose tune. The setup is perfect and Stays that way forever. Does the full graphite sound better? Some say graphite sounds different but I really doubt it. It does feel different though with a kind of smooth cold feel (which I happen to like). Clearly carbon reenforcment bars are just a lesser version of this that doesn't give you the cold carbon feel.

So what is the bottom line of this ramble? My MIM neck sound wise is every bit as good as the reenforced MIA neck. But while my neck is stable, it's never going to be as stable as the MIA one. You can't say otherwise.

But that is just the science. What about the "art"? Well some players find a changing wood neck an irritation. And others just LOVE a wood neck instablilities and all. They say it's those imperfections that make the instrument great. So in these cases one can figure that if the player is pleased he plays better and only in THAT sense, does neck construction change your sound.

And the major other MIM differnece is that the MIM body is made of a bunch of sticks glued together while the MIA is a nice selected piece of tonewood. We all know tonewood doesn't matter. Or probably at least to the point where it can be picked out of a double blind tone test. But again it matters to me. My G&L L2500 MIA basses have wood to die for. Most MIA G&Ls are like that. The tribute not so much. I doubt you could hear the difference when I play them, but I can feel the difference even if you can't hear it. Am I delusional? Maybe.

And in ANY case these manufacturing differences are FAR overshadowed by bass to bass individual differences. I've played some REALLY lousy MIA Fenders and my MIM is a VERY exceptional example of a good one.

Point is you guys are all trying hard to find an easy way out of actually judging basses. You want basses to be like Nazi Germany where you can tell what kind of people are what by the symbols they are required to wear on their arms! Sorry, country of origin is NOT such a label. Good luthiers, just like great bass players can be born anywhere!

You have to judge each bass AS ITSELF. There are no quick shortcuts using brands or countries. Yes, it's more work and you actually have to think and know what your are doing. Sorry about that. And as always, tone is where you find it. Even PRICE is not always an indicator. Danelectro masonite basses are AMAZING instruments everyone loves.

[darkstorm]

Myself I find many of the made in america bases and guitars inferior to the imports for QC and overall build etc.

[awilkie84]

Originally Posted by bassbenj

Is a carbon fiber reenforced neck better than a wood one? As always one has to define what you mean by "better". Does is sound better? Could you tell it in a classic double blind listening test? Of course not. But could a PLAYER tell the difference living with the basses for a while? Well you BET he can. I happen to own a MIM wood neck. It's a WONDERFUL neck. Prefect setup, stable, fast, perfect smooth feel, perfect balance, etc. Can I tell the difference with my Modulus full graphite neck? Hell yes. The graphite is so stable it doesn't even lose tune. The setup is perfect and Stays that way forever. Does the full graphite sound better? Some say graphite sounds different but I really doubt it. It does feel different though with a kind of smooth cold feel (which I happen to like). Clearly carbon reenforcment bars are just a lesser version of this that doesn't give you the cold carbon feel.

So what is the bottom line of this ramble? My MIM neck sound wise is every bit as good as the reenforced MIA neck. But while my neck is stable, it's never going to be as stable as the MIA one. You can't say otherwise.

But that is just the science. What about the "art"? Well some players find a changing wood neck an irritation. And others just LOVE a wood neck instablilities and all. They say it's those imperfections that make the instrument great. So in these cases one can figure that if the player is pleased he plays better and only in THAT sense, does neck construction change your sound.

And the major other MIM differnece is that the MIM body is made of a bunch of sticks glued together while the MIA is a nice selected piece of tonewood. We all know tonewood doesn't matter. Or probably at least to the point where it can be picked out of a double blind tone test. But again it matters to me. My G&L L2500 MIA basses have wood to die for. Most MIA G&Ls are like that. The tribute not so much. I doubt you could hear the difference when I play them, but I can feel the difference even if you can't hear it. Am I delusional? Maybe.

And in ANY case these manufacturing differences are FAR overshadowed by bass to bass individual differences. I've played some REALLY lousy MIA Fenders and my MIM is a VERY exceptional example of a good one.

Point is you guys are all trying hard to find an easy way out of actually judging basses. You want basses to be like Nazi Germany where you can tell what kind of people are what by the symbols they are required to wear on their arms! Sorry, country of origin is NOT such a label. Good luthiers, just like great bass players can be born anywhere!

You have to judge each bass AS ITSELF. There are no quick shortcuts using brands or countries. Yes, it's more work and you actually have to think and know what your are doing. Sorry about that. And as always, tone is where you find it. Even PRICE is not always an indicator. Danelectro masonite basses are AMAZING instruments everyone loves.

Well put!

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by bassbenj

Is a carbon fiber reenforced neck better than a wood one? As always one has to define what you mean by "better."

This, and the general spirit of your post, pretty much hits the nail on the head, and is the reason why these discussions should never become debates, there is no winner.

[Bert Slide]

Some of them cheap imports can be great instruments. I mean sure, once in a while you find a small finger in a body cavity when you pull the pick guard but it's not a big hassle. I find if you just leave 'em in there it really helps with shielding.

[tmdazed]

Originally Posted by fisticuffs

In many cases the US made guitars ARE higher quality. Made from the best of their selection of woods, better pickups and other components and built more by hand than by machine. There's more to the price difference than the slave wages paid in Asia. The US made guitars are generally better. Doesn't mean you can't find a nice import but chances are they used all the primo materials and primo builders on the US made product.

Another reason you may find some imports equal or better than a US made product is because at a store like GC they don't do a good job of maintenance on the instrument. The setups are generally awful on the more expensive instruments because they sit there longer. The cheap Squier probably just came out of the box and has at least an acceptable factory setup.

This is absolutely NOT the truth , this sounds more like consumer elitism and union rhetoric. One just has to look at the decline in quality of even the mighty Gibson , do a search, there have been countless horror stories with them over the past decade or so. This goes for all USA mfg's . Maybe at one time, off shore guitars were sub par, but I would put any of my Korean , Indonesian or Chinese made guitars up against anything North American made, you pay for the made in America sticker and that is about it. There are some great works coming out of the far east, just remember , in the 70's same was said about Japanese electronics and instruments, today all are sought after.

[ChuckTrucks]

Originally Posted by willbassyeah

they are made in the same factory that produces lakland skyline, ibanez and sterling by musicman.They are good basses,

+1

I was about to spend $3900 on a US Lakland 55-94 and at the last moment I got a feeling that I should just get a Skyline to test the waters.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by tmdazed

just remember , in the 70's same was said about Japanese electronics and instruments, today all are sought after.

I don't know of anyone personally who seeks 70's knockoff Japanese guitars. They are fun for decorating the walls and collection but playing them out....blech. You can get most any of them for under $200. I don't particular consider the demand to equate "sought after".