Morphine/Sandman Bass

bluehevy75 · #1 02-23-2009, 10:19 AM

I'm trying to make a bass similar to Sandman (RIP) from Morphine.

That sound is just too cool. I know there were multiple basses and multiple tunings he used but I'm looking for the sound that most of their songs have. Most are in D and most are played on a two string bass. Example: Honeywhite, etc....I'm part way into the project but I'm running into some trouble.

I've read the threads and have had some successes:
1. High action
2. Glass Slide
3. Flatwounds
4. Pic
5. P bass pick ups: one at neck one at bridge.
6. Two string in A and D positions usually.
7. Stuff tuned to fifths usually
8. tune to D and A usually?

Here's the rub. I've got an acoustic bass (not a double bass) with the flats on it and i've set it up and it sounds just like the recordings. When I try to set up the electric the same way (modified G and L) the string in the D position (tuned up to an A) always snaps.

The acoustic has a gibson style headstock so maybe the string doesn't break cause it's shorter? But Sanman's premiere bass had the same fender style headstock as my G&L. Maybe its a string gauge issue. What am I missing?

Any ideas, questions, or comments?

Thanks,
Kevin

thombo · #2 02-23-2009, 10:35 AM

D string snapping when tuned up to A is almost defiantly a string gauge issue.
imho, i'd use a D string for the D and a G string tuned up to A.

bluehevy75 · #3 02-23-2009, 10:56 AM

Thanks for the reply.

I hear you but.... When I try using the smaller gauge strings I don't feel like the sound is thick enough. The pics and vids I've seen all seem to show heavier gauge strings on his bass...but maybe its just me.

check these from a different thread and see what you think:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...-R3-012-4A.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...cs/Sandman.jpg

Kev

Ephminus · #4 02-23-2009, 11:24 AM

It's great to see people even talking about Morphine.

Good luck with your quest.

bluehevy75 · #5 02-23-2009, 11:43 AM

yeah man they are the deal...

talk about a singularly unique musical vision....

I saw some clip on youtube and all he says is..."yeah I started with one string and them move on to two"...

K

carlo3874 · #6 02-23-2009, 11:44 AM

I miss Mark Sandman!

Ephminus · #7 02-23-2009, 01:04 PM

Definitely one of my influences.

...don't you worry about those day-glo orange life preservers...

thombo · #8 02-23-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehevy75

Thanks for the reply.

I hear you but.... When I try using the smaller gauge strings I don't feel like the sound is thick enough. The pics and vids I've seen all seem to show heavier gauge strings on his bass...but maybe its just me.

check these from a different thread and see what you think:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y27...-R3-012-4A.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...cs/Sandman.jpg

Kev

i can't tell much from those pics... i think the whole vibe of mark sandman was not stressing this kind of stuff... he let Mike Rivard take care of that with occasional album overdubs w/ upright basses (maybe electric also?).

if you plan on ever using the bass for anything other than two string slide, or ever sellng it, i advise against tuning a D up to an A... you will A) warp the neck B) snap stings constantly.
Are you also tuning the A to a D?

i really think that the best way to do this is to get a bass, have the nut cut high (like a slide guitard) so that the regular A sting position fits your D sting and the regular D sting position fits your A sting.

Also, experiment with string gauge... maybe a 65 or 70 for a D and a 45 or 55 for the A string.

whatever you end up with, i am sure it'll be cool.

bluehevy75 · #9 02-23-2009, 07:37 PM

I think you are definetly right about Sandman's vibe being not caring aout stuff like this.

Without trying to get into a pissing match regarding loaded words, Sandman was a genius and I'm nowhere close. Which is why I think I'm struggling a little.

I've already tried to sell the bass and couldn't so...instead of letting it sit around for another year and a half I'd figure I'd make some use of it. Shoot, I hope the neck warps. The more it bows the higher the action will get.

Yeah...I'm tuning the A string to a D and the D string to an A. Essentially drop "D" tuning an octave up.

I think you are right about playing with string gauge. I don't have a problem getting an A to go to a D. But the D to A is the problem. I stuck the 50 tonight. I'll see if I can order a 55 and a 60. I already know a 65 won't go. I'm pushing for as thick as I can. Right now I've got a 85 for the lower string and it is riding nicely.

I've installed new pickups and controls and am having some grounding issues but think I can iron that out later.

peace and stuff,
K

thombo · #10 02-24-2009, 06:59 PM

sounds cool, keep us posted!

emjazz · #11 02-24-2009, 07:15 PM

I got to Boston long after Mark died, but his presence is still here.....that band was one of the best.

Good luck and have fun.

bluehevy75 · #12 02-27-2009, 01:38 PM

Hey guys,

A few people I contacted have been kind enough to help me understand what was going on. They have been cool to share their knowledge with us:

I received this from someone (Steve) with firsthand experience with the bass. In the pic links above, he is the one that is not mark sandman. He has contributed in a few discussions about the bass:

“Kevin, you need to mess with string lengths/gauges. I think mine, currently uses a D and G string tuned to G and D. My bandmate uses A and G strings both tuned to A. It can be tricky sometimes and I’ve broken a bunch of strings. The break angle at the bridge can break strings if its too sharp

Sandman played his through a vintage (ac cord attached) EH guitar micro synth. Recordings are through a B-15 and stage through an SVT.

Hope that’s somewhat helpful. Every bass, scale seems different so there are no hard fast rules about this.”

I also, emailed High-n-Dry. Andrew Mazzone (Plays bass for the Twinemen and masters at High-n-dry, among other things) sent me the following:

“Hi Kevin,
Mark set up the Premier bass as follows:
He inserted a metal nut under the strings at the top of the neck to raise the string action about 1/4", much like a slide guitarist might.
Flat wound strings. Most of the time that I recall he used a very heavy metal slide. I think this was definitely part of the heavy sound.
The bass was tuned in fifths. I think the low string was a "D" or and "E" and the other was an "A" or "B". He did not generally change the tuning. As he said, "all of the notes are on every string". he did use other instruments such as the "Tritar" which was a bass string and two sympathetic guitar strings.
Finally, he did break a lot of strings, but he had tremendous control and played very loud through an SVT so he didn't have to slam the strings. The strings were fairly heavy gauge, but nothing extreme. He mostly used D'Addario strings, I think the low E was a 110. (not sure about that).
Hope this helps
Andrew
HI-N-DRY”

I will get back to the project this weekend and will let you all know how things progress.
__Kevin

Ephminus · #13 02-27-2009, 01:47 PM

What a GREAT thread!!!

So many things that I always wondered about Mark Sandman's sound have been answered here.
Well, aside from the small articles I would see in Bass Player magazine or elsewhere from time to time.

emjazz · #14 02-27-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehevy75

Hey guys,

A few people I contacted have been kind enough to help me understand what was going on. They have been cool to share their knowledge with us:

I received this from someone (Steve) with firsthand experience with the bass. In the pic links above, he is the one that is not mark sandman. He has contributed in a few discussions about the bass:

“Kevin, you need to mess with string lengths/gauges. I think mine, currently uses a D and G string tuned to G and D. My bandmate uses A and G strings both tuned to A. It can be tricky sometimes and I’ve broken a bunch of strings. The break angle at the bridge can break strings if its too sharp

Sandman played his through a vintage (ac cord attached) EH guitar micro synth. Recordings are through a B-15 and stage through an SVT.

Hope that’s somewhat helpful. Every bass, scale seems different so there are no hard fast rules about this.”

I also, emailed High-n-Dry. Andrew Mazzone (Plays bass for the Twinemen and masters at High-n-dry, among other things) sent me the following:

“Hi Kevin,
Mark set up the Premier bass as follows:
He inserted a metal nut under the strings at the top of the neck to raise the string action about 1/4", much like a slide guitarist might.
Flat wound strings. Most of the time that I recall he used a very heavy metal slide. I think this was definitely part of the heavy sound.
The bass was tuned in fifths. I think the low string was a "D" or and "E" and the other was an "A" or "B". He did not generally change the tuning. As he said, "all of the notes are on every string". he did use other instruments such as the "Tritar" which was a bass string and two sympathetic guitar strings.
Finally, he did break a lot of strings, but he had tremendous control and played very loud through an SVT so he didn't have to slam the strings. The strings were fairly heavy gauge, but nothing extreme. He mostly used D'Addario strings, I think the low E was a 110. (not sure about that).
Hope this helps
Andrew
HI-N-DRY”

I will get back to the project this weekend and will let you all know how things progress.
__Kevin

Man! I hadn't looked at the pictures until now, but when you said Steve I knew who he had to have been!!! I haven't seen Steve in such a long time....great guy! Please, if you talk to him again, tell him that Andy Dow says hello! He used to work at the only music shop that used to matter around here, Rockcity Music....damn I miss that place....although, I sure do get a lot more practicing done now!

bluehevy75 · #15 03-09-2009, 01:34 PM

I got the bass finished. It sounds great and looks okay. I think my workmanship leaves something to be desired. Hopefully, that is part of the charm. Thanks so much for your help. I told steve that you said hi.

Take care.

K

emjazz · #16 03-09-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehevy75

I got the bass finished. It sounds great and looks okay. I think my workmanship leaves something to be desired. Hopefully, that is part of the charm. Thanks so much for your help. I told steve that you said hi.

Take care.

K

Thanks for passing that along man. I appreciate it. Have a great time with the bass.

Jared Lash · #17 03-09-2009, 04:57 PM

Nothing really to add except that I always loved Mark Sandman and Morphine. Treat Her Right is good too.

For some reason I always thought Sandman's bass just had an E and A and he detuned the E to D.

A bit off-topic, but a band that has a very Morphine type vibe is Bourbon Princess. Not an accident since Morphine's drummer is part of that band too. Their song "Minor Key" came on my iPod a few minutes ago.

bluehevy75 · #18 03-10-2009, 07:24 AM

Thanks for the Bourbon Princess suggestion. I'll check them out.

As far as I cant tell, you are half right. Mark is doing "Drop D" tuning but he does it an octave up.

Many posts on the internet suggest that Mark used the "E" and "A" stings and tuning the "E" down to "D" (giving us "D" and "A"). Drop D tuning right? But I've learned some other things by talking to some great people here on talkbass and emailing some people that have first-hand knowledge of the bass (thanks andrew).

Mark did use many tunings but what I think I've learned is that typically he is using the "A" and "D" strings (or at the very least, strings in those spots). Mark then tunes the "A" up to a "D" and the "D" up to an "A". This gives you "D" and "A", in other words "Drop D" tuning an octave up.

I know all of this "A" "D" "E" bit can look confusing in print but makes sense if you try it. Simple, two-string, drop d bass tuning is two low, there is not enough tension for the slide to work right or sound good. That is part of the brilliance of Mark's idea and why it sounds so good. The string tension is so tight with it being an octave higher that the slide practically sizzles on the strings.

Maybe this is more than you all wanted...I've had some coffee this morning...and sometimes I get carried away when I talk about music, especially someone who contributed as much to the musical lexicon as Mark Sandman and the boys from morphine.

Thanks,
Kevin

sonic assassin · #19 03-10-2009, 07:49 AM

so i have no idea who this guy is, but from the outside looking in.. he appears to be a total quack.

so i youtubed him. music is interesting i guess. first song i listened to wasnt so special. but then i clicked another.. "cocoon" this is interesting. dark piano and what sounds like a baritone and alto sax. im a real sucker for bari sax

emjazz · #20 03-10-2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

so i have no idea who this guy is, but from the outside looking in.. he appears to be a total quack.

so i youtubed him. music is interesting i guess. first song i listened to wasnt so special. but then i clicked another.. "cocoon" this is interesting. dark piano and what sounds like a baritone and alto sax. im a real sucker for bari sax

"total quack"....I prefer eccentric. I never got to meet Mark...I only get to hear the stories now from people that I know and meet around town who knew Mark. He sounded like a really interesting cat for sure. Wish that I could've met him.

The baritone sax player is Dana Colley. He's still around. Great guy. He helps run High N Dry recording studio, and they just moved it to a new space...I can't wait to see it. It's in an old armory. Very cool. Anyhow, it's always a pleasure to see Dana show up on a gig. That sound of his is haunting. It's really something to see someone play live who has a sound that you listened to on recordings for years, especially a sound as distinct as his.