New 2013 Guild Starfire Bass Reissue

[RBrownBass]

I can just imagine being an Asian luthier or bass company owner and having to think about moving to the USA and changing my name to "Colin" or "Ralph" to overcome the idea that I can't build a bass worthy of American company prices.

[primussucks9126]

Originally Posted by Patski

I've created a petition to get a Justin Meldal-Johnsen signature Bass made in the Guild US Custom Shop. Please sign if a vintage accurate, 2 pickup American Starfire Bass tickles your fancy


http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/g...starfire-bass/


Mike from Guild has been frequenting the letstalkguild forums recently, so my plan is to pass this onto him. Please spread the word!

As fantastic as that sounds, I think that would price it past the point of consideration for me.

Originally Posted by RBrownBass

I can just imagine being an Asian luthier or bass company owner and having to think about moving to the USA and changing my name to "Colin" or "Ralph" to overcome the idea that I can't build a bass worthy of American company prices.

For me, it's more about a desire to purchase domestically produced goods when I can on principle, as opposed to some perception of quality or some kind of snobbery.

Gibson USA makes the Midtown hollowbody for around 1500 street. I wonder why Guild can't do something at a similar price point also made here? I'm legitimately curious about that, not trying to be a smart ass or anything of the sort.

[swamp2]

Guild isn't Guild. Guild really isn't anything anymore other than just another brand name owned by FMIC. It's pretty meaningless, sadly - they just do whatever they feel like with it... They'd put it on keyboards if they thought they could make a buck on it.

[RBrownBass]

Originally Posted by primussucks9126

For me, it's more about a desire to purchase domestically produced goods when I can on principle, as opposed to some perception of quality or some kind of snobbery.

I completely get that- I was just reading the first few pages and saw the usual "knock-off" comments... that doesn't ever happen when the company's employees are White Americans.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Guild isn't Guild. Guild really isn't anything anymore other than just another brand name owned by FMIC. It's pretty meaningless, sadly - they just do whatever they feel like with it... They'd put it on keyboards if they thought they could make a buck on it.

Does FMIC meddle in the manufacture or do they buy the company and allow it to do what it's always done, the only difference being that they now make money for FMIC?

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Guild isn't Guild. Guild really isn't anything anymore other than just another brand name owned by FMIC. It's pretty meaningless, sadly - they just do whatever they feel like with it... They'd put it on keyboards if they thought they could make a buck on it.

Just like when they took some Guild designs, like the Piolet bass, and called them DeArmond, because they own the DeArmond name. DeArmond/Rowe made pickups, and did not make guitars and basses.

It's a travesty.

This is from the Wikipedia article:

"After several changes in management and ownership, Guild was eventually purchased by the Fender Musical Instruments Corporation in 1995. In late 2001, Fender decided to move all Guild production to its factory in Corona, California.

To ease the Corona facility (which had only made electric guitars up to this point) into making archtop and acoustic guitars, the Westerly factory artisans and workers prepared guitar 'kits' that they shipped to Corona. These kits were near-complete production guitars that only needed finishing and final assembly before being sent to retailers.

Production in Corona was short-lived, however, as Fender acquired the assets of Washington-based Tacoma Guitar Company in 2004, and moved all American Guild acoustic production to Tacoma, Washington and discontinued production of US-made Guild electric guitars completely."

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Production in Corona was short-lived, however, as Fender acquired the assets of Washington-based Tacoma Guitar Company in 2004, and moved all American Guild acoustic production to Tacoma, Washington and discontinued production of US-made Guild electric guitars completely."

Right. Sadly, Guild as a company no longer exists. It exists only as a name that FMIC happens to own and can prostitute to it's own best interests. And evidently that includes spec'ing it as the name to throw on the headstock of some instruments that roll down the assembly line in some non-descript factory in Korea.

Again, this Starfire bass may be a completely delightful instrument and if you like it and can convince yourself it's a reasonable value, by all means buy one. But don't delude yourself into thinking it's really a Guild.

[RBrownBass]

Is a factory in Korea any less nondescript than one in Kalamazoo or Corona?

[JTE]

Originally Posted by RBrownBass

Is a factory in Korea any less nondescript than one in Kalamazoo or Corona?

Or a repurposed furniture factory in Westerly RI that couldn't sensibly be updated to making guitars efficiently in 2001?

FMIC has done no worse, and arguably better supporting Guild than just about any of the many owners since Mr. Dronge died. Even George Gruhn's partial ownership didn't give them any new market presence. FMIC has owned Guild since 1995, seventeen years. They've invested a lot in marketing, and maintain the company. Moving production to Connecticut made sense- while I never cared for the sound, they were always extremely well-built.

John

[swamp2]

Are there any Guild employees anymore? Is there really a Guild company? Where is the company headquartered? Can I take a factory tour?

I honestly am not sure, but I don't believe so.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by RBrownBass

Is a factory in Korea any less nondescript than one in Kalamazoo or Corona?

No, but the point was shown in the Wikipedia article:

"the Westerly factory artisans and workers prepared guitar 'kits' that they shipped to Corona."

The real Guild plant had the luthiers that made the originals, and had probably been doing it for a long time. So you can see there that Fender was not equipped skill wise to build these guitars, so they needed kits. The real Guild builders made the parts, and then sent them to be assembled. Fender could have hired those guys, but instead sent the guitars overseas, where labor is cheaper.

Also they are made in China, not Korea.

Fender could have just left Guild in RI to keep making guitars like they did in that location since 1966.

So what you have now is a name they own, and copies they are having made overseas. But in many ways Fender is the same. The current owners own the name, and build copies of what Leo and company designed. It's not the same company.

The same thing happened with Gibson. When they moved from Kalamazoo the old timers didn't want to go, so they stayed in the original factory and kept building guitars like they used to do.

http://www.heritageguitar.com/indexc.html

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by JTE

Or a repurposed furniture factory in Westerly RI that couldn't sensibly be updated to making guitars efficiently in 2001?

Right, you make good points, but why take some Guild models and stick the name DeArmond on them? That kind of cheapens the name of both companies.

[D.M.N.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Are there any Guild employees anymore? Is there really a Guild company? Where is the company headquartered? Can I take a factory tour?

I honestly am not sure, but I don't believe so.

Yes there are and yes there is. The new Guild Factory is located up in New Hartford, CT, and it is a dedicated factory for Guild. The employees are Guild employees, though, yes, technically they are paid out of the FMIC coffers. Fender's custom shop Acoustics are actually made at the Guild plant, I do believe, which makes sense given it is so geared toward acoustic instruments (and Fender never really has been).

I'm honestly not terribly upset about the offshoring. Would I prefer to see an American made Starfire in a reasonable price range? Yes, as I do prefer MIA for my own reasons. Even something in the price range of the new Fender American Vintage series. However, there's no way I'd be up for an MIA Patriarch Series Starfire. And I prefer to have a MIK than a MIC, as I have experience with products from both countries, and IME, MIK is a higher standard. How would people feel if these were MIJ? Would that be better? I've played fantastic MIJ Fenders, people often think they're great instruments, and I think MIK is just as good as MIJ. At least FMIC isn't turning these into a Squier affair. Yes, it might have been nice to have kept Guild a US only deal (though they've already been producing the GAD series in China for some time), and again made use of the DeArmond name for the offshore products, but I think from their stand point, DeArmond doesn't have the same clout or history as Guild, so that wouldn't make sense for sales. So overall, I'm happy with the prospects of the new Starfire, and am eagerly looking forward to them hitting stores in a few months.

[JTE]

The "kits" were sent to Corona because they were shutting Westerly. It was WIP, not an ongoing process. And they built Guild acoustics and electrics in Corona. They figured out that building acoustics in a factory designed yo make solid body electrics wasn't cost effective to do at the level they wanted. The production moved to their Neely purchased Tacoma plant. However, Tacoma had been having ongoing QC issues before FMIC bought them. Moving production to Kaman made sense.

The oriental Guild acoustics had a separate series, the GAD. Not really different from what Lakland's Skyline, Sadowsky's, Smith, etc. for with import lines.

The DeArmond line was like what Gibson eventually did with Epiphone, a way to market a lower priced analogue to their US made line.

If "Guild isn't Guild any more", I assert that it's not FMIC's fault. It stopped being "Guild" either when Alfred Fringe died, or at least when Avnet sold the company in the '80s.

John

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by JTE

The "kits" were sent to Corona because they were shutting Westerly. It was WIP, not an ongoing process. And they built Guild acoustics and electrics in Corona. They figured out that building acoustics in a factory designed yo make solid body electrics wasn't cost effective to do at the level they wanted. The production moved to their Neely purchased Tacoma plant. However, Tacoma had been having ongoing QC issues before FMIC bought them. Moving production to Kaman made sense.

"To ease the Corona facility (which had only made electric guitars up to this point) into making archtop and acoustic guitars, the Westerly factory artisans and workers prepared guitar 'kits' that they shipped to Corona. These kits were near-complete production guitars that only needed finishing and final assembly before being sent to retailers."

Why not just build them in Corona? Because they wen't set up for it. They were setup for it in R.I. They had all the tooling etc. Why not bring the tooling to Corona?

The oriental Guild acoustics had a separate series, the GAD. Not really different from what Lakland's Skyline, Sadowsky's, Smith, etc. for with import lines.

There are no US made Guild electrics.

The DeArmond line was like what Gibson eventually did with Epiphone, a way to market a lower priced analogue to their US made line.

BUT, Epiphone was a guitar maker that Gibson bought. Gibson made totally different Epiphone guitars from the Gibson models, like the Wilshire. But they also had the matching models like the Casino. But, from 1957 and 1969 they were made right in the Gbson factory by the Gibson employees. It wasn't until 1970 that they became an import from Samick in Japan.

DeArmond was not a guitar maker. So why not release the Pilot bass with the Guild name on it? Why use the DeArmond name on guitars? Why not reissue some DeArmond pickups?

If "Guild isn't Guild any more", I assert that it's not FMIC's fault. It stopped being "Guild" either when Alfred Fringe died, or at least when Avnet sold the company in the '80s.

It is nice that Fender is reissuing these instruments.

[JimmyM]

Oh, get over it. Things change, time moves on, big deal.

[D.M.N.]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

There are no US made Guild electrics.

Well then, I'm not really sure what to make of the American Patriarch series...

http://www.guildguitars.com/instrume...2%84%A2+Series

[willbassyeah]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Oh, get over it. Things change, time moves on, big deal.

+1 a great bass is a great bass whether it is made by Americans, Japanese, or cihuahuas

[T-34]

Anyway, once the original owner is not there anymore (say "Fender"? "Gibson"?), can anybody tell the company is REALLY the same as the "old good one"?

A modern company is run by accountants and investors... American or not...

[Mungi]

So, it's a problem that the bass is not made in the US, but not a problem that the pickup is not made in Sweden?

[Patski]

I'm enjoying the debate, but I do feel like i need to explain my reasoning for this idea, so here goes.

I only suggested an American made model as it seems like the Koreans aren't fitted out to do nitro finishes and the finer details, given what Justin Meldal-Johnsen had to say about the quality of the instrument when he tried it at NAMM (see his comments further below). Personally, not being from the US of A, I don't care where it's made so long as it's done really well.

I think it's great that there is a cheap option from Korea, but I would really like it if there was the option of a Starfire II that's comparable in quality/price to an AVRI Fender. So I'll concede that an American Patriarch is overkill, i only really suggested that as Guild doesn't appear to have anything else stateside in the way of facilities.

Having thought about it more, perhaps having the basic instrument done in Korea and then shipped to the US for fretwork, finishing, and QA is the way to go. I believe that Lakland and G&L do this with some of their instruments, and they do it without the cost blowing out.

I hear that the Japanese Gretsch models are a lot better than the equivalent Korean ones, so maybe that's another alternative that people can get behind.

JMJ is one of my fave bassists, and the guy offered his time free of charge to deliver the only bass that he would consider for a signature model. He's passionate about his basses and I feel like he would be a great name to promote the instrument.

Let me know what you think of these ideas (i.e. MIJ or Korean made with finishing in US) and I will amend my petition if we can reach some sort of consensus.


Justin's opinion on the korean Starfire in case you missed it:

Played it. Enjoyed it, seems pretty well made, sounds good. My time was brief, and the surrounding noise prevented a deep scrutiny. Neck size is a bit smaller in than the originals, with a shallower profile and a flatter radius.

It is a Korean instrument. So, while this helps price point, there's a certain feeling in its build quality that just doesn't compare to one of my USA reissues from '98. First thing I noticed in this regard was the thickness of the finish, for instance. WAY too thick. The next thing I noticed was the thing that seems endemic to quite literally every single Korean instrument I've ever held, which is the slightly marginalized quality of the fret work. All that said, it felt very solid (certainly as good as an Epiphone Jack Cassidy, for instance).

I'm a little miffed that Fender didn't consult with me on it, only because they have promised such things to me over the years in several attempts to get the Starfire project off the ground. Each time it was brought up as a possibility, I had made it abundantly clear that this project needed a lot of TLC and careful management and expert artist consultation from myself and others, and that I would of course had helped out happily with no compensation required. Alas, it was not to be. However, when I saw the instrument today, my immediate thought was that I was glad that they didn't completely f*&k it up. I would just have far preferred a different pickup position as well as a more true-to-form neck profile, more thoughtful finishing, and USA manufacturing.

What can I do? If you guys get enough sigs, I can definitely get my people at Fender to take more strong notice...who knows? Could be good for all.

If I was to ever do a sig bass, it would quite literally be just this very thing. Done very, very right.