Question about the sound of a '74 Jazz bass

Bassphil · #1 12-10-2012, 12:12 PM

Hey, doesn't anyone out there happen to own a '74 Jazz bass AND a '60's Jazz bass?

I picked up a '74 a few years ago solely because it fell into my lap. I already have an unbelievable sounding '69. At the time I was thinking that I could leave the '69 at home and take the '74 on the road.

Well, I'm just now starting to fool around with the '74 a bit. I've been setting it up- truss rod, intonation, pickup height, etc... but nothing I do gets it to sound as fat as the '69.

It seems to me like the front (neck) pickup isn't pulling it's weight. I've checked everything- all the solder joints, volume pots, jack, pickup... everything seems to be completely in order. It's not like there's active electronics to fail, so I'm guessing this is just what a '74 sounds like.

I bought it from the original owner, who said he never did anything to it. I should mention that it's a rare 4 bolt neck- none of that tilting weirdness.

My question is, what is a '74 supposed to sound like? This one sounds good, it's just a little light in the bass compared to the '69. Is it normal to have a weak-ish front pickup in '74? It sounds super clear and nice, just a bit anemic for my tastes.

I'm planning on selling it, and I want to make sure that there's not an issue with it before I give it to someone. Thanks for your time!

-Phil

guroove · #2 12-10-2012, 12:18 PM

70's jazz basses sound different because the placement of the bridge pickup is closer to the bridge giving it more of that bridge pickup sound. It shouldn't sound thin though. I've never found any two fender basses to sound the same, so it's not surprising that they sound different from one another. Are they both set up? Have you checked the pickup to string clearances?

funk7856 · #3 12-10-2012, 12:53 PM

I don't own a 60's Jazz but I can tell you there is no lack of low end on my '74. FWIW, compared to my '64CS, the '74 has a slightly darker, more snarly growl to it. My '64CS comes across as much brighter sounding.

michael_atw · #4 12-10-2012, 12:55 PM

Probably just a weak pickup either by design or age.

Bassphil · #5 12-10-2012, 02:03 PM

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Hmm, so it was either built that way, or it's aged into that sound. The more I think about it, something has to be up, but what could possible "break" on a passive bass. There should definitely be more low end, but I can't imagine that it would have been built that way.

One thing I noticed is that as I turn the volume up on the front pickup, it takes about a 1/4 turn to make a difference. It's almost as if the volume pot isn't letting the pickup turn up to its proper fullness.

The pickup height looks good to me, but I'll check it again.

Maybe the question I should be asking is, can I pickup somehow loose it's gain?

Thanks again for your help!

michael_atw · #6 12-10-2012, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassphil

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Hmm, so it was either built that way, or it's aged into that sound. The more I think about it, something has to be up, but what could possible "break" on a passive bass. There should definitely be more low end, but I can't imagine that it would have been built that way.

One thing I noticed is that as I turn the volume up on the front pickup, it takes about a 1/4 turn to make a difference. It's almost as if the volume pot isn't letting the pickup turn up to its proper fullness.

The pickup height looks good to me, but I'll check it again.

Maybe the question I should be asking is, can I pickup somehow loose it's gain?

Thanks again for your help!

I don't know much, but pickups can degrade over time without completely losing sound. Does the pickup bobbin show any warping, corrosion, etc?

Also, older pots have that issue where they seem to lose their muster - or weren't born with it. I've dealt with some 50's-60's guitars and basses where the volume pot would need to go about 8 to even come on. It would go from 1-10 in two numbers. You'd lose that initial volume control but otherwise it didn't affect the "top" end of the pickup's ability. 10 would still be 10, just 6 would be 0.

Bassphil · #7 12-10-2012, 02:14 PM

I have an idea. How can I check the pickup to see if there's a problem with the windings? I have a multimeter.

I found this article that sounds like it could be a possibility:

http://www.davelevasseur.com/Fender%...p%20Repair.htm

Bassphil · #8 12-10-2012, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael_atw

I don't know much, but pickups can degrade over time without completely losing sound. Does the pickup bobbin show any warping, corrosion, etc?

Also, older pots have that issue where they seem to lose their muster - or weren't born with it. I've dealt with some 50's-60's guitars and basses where the volume pot would need to go about 8 to even come on. It would go from 1-10 in two numbers. You'd lose that initial volume control but otherwise it didn't affect the "top" end of the pickup's ability. 10 would still be 10, just 6 would be 0.

I noticed that the copper was pretty dark. I have a ’65 P bass that I recently bought (thus the reason for selling this Jazz). When I checked the pickup dates on that bass, I noticed that the copper was super clean and bright copper colored. This Jazz is definitely tarnished. .

AMJBASS · #9 12-10-2012, 02:29 PM

The wire should be dark. It is enamel coated. That isn't the issue. You could try a different set of pickups in it, but the bass will sound thinner than a 60's anyway as the bridge pickup is a half inch closer to the bridge.

Bassphil · #10 12-10-2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassphil

I noticed that the copper was pretty dark. I have a ’65 P bass that I recently bought (thus the reason for selling this Jazz). When I checked the pickup dates on that bass, I noticed that the copper was super clean and bright copper colored. This Jazz is definitely tarnished. .

Whew. Based in what I'm hearing so far, this maybe just be the way this bass sounds. Still, I'd like to be able to check the output of the pickup scientifically. Doesn't anyone know how to do that? I guess that I would simple touch my multimeter to the leads and look at the reading. Anyone know what setting and what reading I should be looking for?

michael_atw · #11 12-10-2012, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassphil

Whew. Based in what I'm hearing so far, this maybe just be the way this bass sounds. Still, I'd like to be able to check the output of the pickup scientifically. Doesn't anyone know how to do that? I guess that I would simple touch my multimeter to the leads and look at the reading. Anyone know what setting and what reading I should be looking for?

I figured you had already checked the resistance. The Ohm setting (omega symbol). I don't know how much they read at that point but I'm guessing around 7k? Someone else would know that.

What can degrade is the magnet in connection to the wire. It can die from the inside out - insofar as the simple understanding I know.

bobalu · #12 12-10-2012, 09:08 PM

My '74 is pretty fat sounding when I compare it to my Road Worn Jazz. I can't get over the "clarity" of the sound, it's just amazing.

Luckydog · #13 12-10-2012, 09:33 PM

I have two 69s, a 77 and a 76. The 69s definitely have a bigger bottom end, and thicker overall sound. Lots of differences- weight, pickup placement, body wood, pickup winding, tone/vol pots, finish, perhaps even neck joint.

tombowlus · #14 12-10-2012, 10:01 PM

You might enjoy reading Phil Maneri's recent "Philthy Talk" article in Bass Gear Magazine issue #9, wherein he compares and contrasts four different iterations of the iconic Jazz Bass.

Caca de Kick · #15 12-11-2012, 12:15 PM

First things first...measure the output of the pickup. Back then, pickup winding can be inconsistant. You can find anywhere from 6.2 to 7.5k

Bassphil · #16 12-11-2012, 12:39 PM

Okay, I finally had a minute to pull the pickup back out. Using my Fluke Multimeter at it's Ohm setting, I'm reading 20.8K. I touched the red and white Fluke probes to the black and white leads right where they connect to the pickup.

Thoughts?

michael_atw · #17 12-11-2012, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassphil

Okay, I finally had a minute to pull the pickup back out. Using my Fluke Multimeter at it's Ohm setting, I'm reading 20.8K. I touched the red and white Fluke probes to the black and white leads right where they connect to the pickup.

Thoughts?

Not a legitimate reading.

You have to test until you get a legit reading.

NWB · #18 12-11-2012, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassphil

Okay, I finally had a minute to pull the pickup back out. Using my Fluke Multimeter at it's Ohm setting, I'm reading 20.8K. I touched the red and white Fluke probes to the black and white leads right where they connect to the pickup.

Thoughts?

I think you found the problem. As Caca de kick noted, it should be in the neighborhood of 7k. It may be a broken coil wire somewhere inside the pickup.

Perhaps a rewind is in order?

Bassphil · #19 12-11-2012, 03:21 PM

I decided to pull both pickups and lay them on their backs to make sure that I was making solid contact.

Since the volume and tone pots are affecting the signal, I did a little experiment and checked the reading with the pots either all the way up (on) or all the way closed (off). Here's what I found. The readings are in ohms or kilohms (I'm assuming that's what the K means on the meter...).

All three knobs off:
Front pup: 7.04k
Back pup: 7.01K

Front On, Back Off, Tone On
Front pup:125.4K
Back pup: 38.7

Front On, Back Off, Tone Off
Front pup:125.4K
Back pup: 39.6

Front Off, Back On, Tone On
Front pup:16.5
Back pup: 7.02k

Front Off, Back On, Tone Off
Front pup:16.5
Back pup: 7.02k

So, what do these readouts look like?

By the way, when I pulled the rear pickup out, the white wire popped off. I was hoping that a faulty soldering joint was somehow causing the problem. I soldered it back in, but it didn't affect anything.

I when I put everything back together, I made sure the front pickup was as high as I could get it, then I lowered the strings to get them in even closer. It still sounds anemic

Thanks again to everyone for your help!!

-Phil

tjnkoo · #20 12-11-2012, 04:00 PM

I would possibly attempt a pickup swap. My 77' has EMGs from the 80's, and it sounds killer. The thin tone could also be partially because the bass is so light. I'm by no means an expert here, but my 77' weighs nearly 11 pounds I believe, and it has a big sound to it. I've heard a teacher's lighter 78' and it had a much thinner sound to it. The weight/thickness of tone was expounded upon in a Juan Alderete interview I saw once.