Rickenbacker 4001... tone-monster it isn't...

[Bloodywanker1]

So... 1973 Rickenbacker 4001. Last year of checkerboard binding, full-width sharktooth inlays, and toaster pickup. Has the original wavy Grovers, bridge/nut/frets. The pickguard isn't original (tooled leather... didn't dig it at first, but now I realize that it was made when the bass was brand-spankin' new, and is pretty sweet). Had a dead bridge pickup, so that was re-wound by Curtis Novak (http://curtisnovak.com) The pickup ended up absolutely perfect. The neck pickup is original, and reads out in the 8k range... However:

The pots aren't original. They're from an audio manufacturer (the name escapes me at the moment...), and the wiring has been replaced in portions. Not pretty. I'm not positive if the caps are original, and those are unmarked, so I don't know their values.

Main issue:

The tone blows. The sound is ultra-thin, with a focus on muddy (and at the same time) nasally thin mids on notes E-B on the E-string, a distinct lack of definition on the A-string, and no volume (read: very uneven volume transition) or bass tone on the D- and G-strings (pickup height is not an issue; that is set as close as they get with no string contact).

I play over an Aguilar DB750 into a Phil Jones 16B, and my Precision is like... and, well, it'll make many of us come to tears it's so perfect through that! I've owned 3 4001/4003's in the past ('75, '78, '06), and they were pretty damn good. I really want to use this bass on the local gigs, but I've had a $50.00 pawnshop Kay bass sound better...

Main object:

I know that it's sacrilege, but I want my Rickenbacker to emulate my Precision in a couple select ways:

1. Even tone across the strings. Now I know that won't happen perfectly on any bass (string gauge/string length/aperture of vibration, yadda yadda yadda), but if I'm playing a groove in D, I want to be able to use the high D on the G-string without loosing all tone and most volume.

2. If I am able to have my lows boosted on the amp in order to compensate for the lack of lows on the D- and G-string, I would like to keep my E- and A-strings from booming like a bad rap track next to you that rattles the dudes Buick apart. How can I balance that?

I'm wondering what impact the pots will have in this equation and what value (if any) caps to use.

The electronics are all aftermarket anyways, so tossing those in favor of a very well-executed custom job doesn't frighten me, and I'm not worried about 100% vintage accuracy. I do my own luthiery work (8 years and running), so getting the job done is no problem. I want to PLAY this bass and love the tone, not have a queen to keep on the damn rack!

PLEASE HELP! Thanks guys.

[Spleenface92]

Possibly change the wiring to the modern 4003 style wiring with the push-pull pot?

[Bloodywanker1]

I was thinking about that, but would you happen to know what the height of the push-pull potentiometer is from the base of the pickguard? I wonder if there's clearance...

[Bloodywanker1]

Tomorrow I'll pull the 'guard and get some measurements...

[bongomania]

FWIW, the Seymour Duncan replacement Ric bridge pup has perfectly even strength across all strings, and has a super full fat tone. The only complaint you'll ever see about it is that it doesn't sound like a Ric bridge pup--so since you say that's a non-issue for you, it's perfect.

As long as the wiring is done correctly, I would avoid putting too much trouble into the pots and caps--they should not have a big impact on the specific issues you described.

[steddy2112]

Originally Posted by bongomania

FWIW, the Seymour Duncan replacement Ric bridge pup has perfectly even strength across all strings, and has a super full fat tone. The only complaint you'll ever see about it is that it doesn't sound like a Ric bridge pup--so since you say that's a non-issue for you, it's perfect.

As long as the wiring is done correctly, I would avoid putting too much trouble into the pots and caps--they should not have a big impact on the specific issues you described.

I actually have a set of said SD's and took em back out. Mud city, in the low mids and lacked all if any definition.

OP, just remove the .0047 capacitor like almost everyone and their mother does so the low end can actually shine.

8k is about right for the time period of p/u's but the modern Rics had significantly hotter pickups.

Also that toaster pickup is a guitar pickup(yuck)

I mean if you wanna keep it "vintage" leave it alone, if you want it to actually have some sound, do what everyone else does to em and kill the cap, and throw some updated pickups in it.

[Shawn Luckman]

Very nice looking Ric & collection.

[Jeff Scott]

Originally Posted by steddy2112

Also that toaster pickup is a guitar pickup(yuck)

If the toaster is that bad I'll swap something out in exchange for that beat up old toaster pickup; I can find a use for it.

[kcole4001]

Sounds like it needs rewiring.
You can download the PDF schematic from the RIC site under Service/Schematics/Guitar Schematics.

Guitar Schematics

[lug]

Does it sound better with each individual pup as opposed to combining them? Your description almost sounds like a phase problem between the pups.

[cassius987]

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

If the toaster is that bad I'll swap something out in exchange for that beat up old toaster pickup; I can find a use for it.

No Jeff, you don't have to suffer through that, I'll be the martyr and take it instead!

[Bloodywanker1]

Originally Posted by bongomania

FWIW, the Seymour Duncan replacement Ric bridge pup has perfectly even strength across all strings, and has a super full fat tone. The only complaint you'll ever see about it is that it doesn't sound like a Ric bridge pup--so since you say that's a non-issue for you, it's perfect.

Yeah, I would consider that, but I just paid $85.00 for C. Novak to rewire that guy!

Originally Posted by steddy2112

OP, just remove the .0047 capacitor like almost everyone and their mother does so the low end can actually shine.

I mean if you wanna keep it "vintage" leave it alone, if you want it to actually have some sound, do what everyone else does to em and kill the cap, and throw some updated pickups in it.

I may by going that 'cap-less' route today... Always start with the least expensive item first!

Originally Posted by Jeff Scott

If the toaster is that bad I'll swap something out in exchange for that beat up old toaster pickup; I can find a use for it.

No problem! I think I can exchange that for some studio time with your 4005....

Originally Posted by kcole4001

Sounds like it needs rewiring.
You can download the PDF schematic from the RIC site under Service/Schematics/Guitar Schematics.

Guitar Schematics

I was also considering going with a new set of pots/harness, but I don't know if I have clearance with that push-pull... I'd rather not have to take out material if I don't have to.

Originally Posted by lug

Does it sound better with each individual pup as opposed to combining them? Your description almost sounds like a phase problem between the pups.

Actually, I can hear almost no difference. Neck or bridge, tones set all the way to cut or full-flow, the 'thinness' and unevenness is still there. When the tones are set to full and letting the max amount of signal through, it's definitely louder of course but wimpy in the bass.

[maxgrant]

I have a '73 rickenbacker. Now, not having yours in front of me I can't tell, but the patchwork job you describe of the electronics makes me think you might just want to go, find someone who actually knows what he's doing, and have it all redone from start to finish.

Also, you really shouldn't put the pickups that close to the strings. If you say they're so close they're almost in contact, I don't think that is going to sound very good. I always back mine off a bit.

[Bloodywanker1]

Originally Posted by maxgrant

I have a '73 rickenbacker. Now, not having yours in front of me I can't tell, but the patchwork job you describe of the electronics makes me think you might just want to go, find someone who actually knows what he's doing, and have it all redone from start to finish.

Also, you really shouldn't put the pickups that close to the strings. If you say they're so close they're almost in contact, I don't think that is going to sound very good. I always back mine off a bit.

The guy that did this had minimal skills at best, so swapping the rat's nest for new is definitely the way I want to go.

I put 3/32" clearance between the magnet and the string when pressing the 20th fret. During playing in any typical midrange key, I have a pretty comfortable distance between string/pole.

[lug]

Originally Posted by Bloodywanker1

Actually, I can hear almost no difference. Neck or bridge, tones set all the way to cut or full-flow, the 'thinness' and unevenness is still there. When the tones are set to full and letting the max amount of signal through, it's definitely louder of course but wimpy in the bass.

Upping tone pot shouldn't make it "louder", it should just add some high end frequency to your sound. Something is definately amiss, seek professional help immediatly!

[Bloodywanker1]

Originally Posted by lug

Upping tone pot shouldn't make it "louder", it should just add some high end frequency to your sound. Something is definately amiss, seek professional help immediatly!

What I mean by that is just like any tone control that is wide open on a passive instrument, the most amount of frequencies are being passed through and heard. Rolling the tone off into 'Dub City' takes the whole mid and high range of frequencies and progressively diminishes them, resulting in a different tone of course, but also a lower amount of perceived sound. Methinks.

[Bloodywanker1]

Hey cassius987, I found a pretty nice post written by you on the Rickresource Forum!

Quote:

If your equipment for hi-gain instruments is nice (a very high impedance input for sure), go ahead and just go with a 4 control setup without a push-pull and wire the 0.0047 μF capacitor in series with the hot lead of the treble pickup (coming from the switch lug to the volume pot). With a good input impedance you can barely hear a difference with the cap in or out so it may as well be in, giving you a more accurate vintage sound (and removing any comb filtering, which is what gives the two-pickup mono sound of modern Rics a tone slightly reminiscent of a Jazz Bass--if you like that, you may not want the high-pass cap at all). For a traditional harness you'll want 250 kΩ volume pots and 500 kΩ tone pots. The ROS jacks may as well come direct from RIC or a dealer as they're the least fun to solder (in my humble opinion).

You can also do 330 kΩ pots all around or just for the volume pots and leave tone pots at 500. This would "brighten" the sound a little by reducing overall signal loading but it would be less true to the original harness, so think about what your biggest priorities are.

If you don't know how to do this yourself there are many people who could do it for you for the cost of parts and shipping; I would be willing to and so would many others I'm sure.

[Coolhandjjl]

Post in the Rickenbacker Club thread here at TB.
The Rickenbacker Club Part Five
Lots of good folks there willing to share.

I also recommend the RickResource Forums

If you have a .0047 cap in-line with the bridge pup, I suggest removing it. It acts as a hi-pass filter on the bridge pup blocking off around 150hz and lower perhaps. Not sure of the specific frequency. This cap is not to be confused with the customary .047 tone caps.

The push/pull pot made reference to is so folks can have the .0047 cap in or out of the circuit. The one that fits is available here: +The Rickenbacker Page Parts
Their wiring diagram is not very clear, I suggest getting one from Joeys Bass Notes after you join the RickResource Forums.

I'm in Appleton, you can come over and I can show you what's going on, and you can consider buying new pots, etc.

[Ric5]

If you live near Denver then come by my workshop and I can rewire it for you.

I have rewired several 70s 4001 basses. They will come stock with 250k ohm volume pots and 500k ohm tone pots. They will also have 8k ohm single coil pickups and a .0047 bass cutting capacitor.

The first thing to do is to remove .0047 tone sucking capacitor and just put in a straight wire in its place. I just did this for a friend a few days ago on his 4001 and it really improves the tone.

Then I like to wire a 70s 4001 with all 250k ohm pots and the original 8k ohm pickups. Or they also sound good with the modern 11k ohm pickups and all 330 k ohm pots.

[Coolhandjjl]

Originally Posted by lug

Does it sound better with each individual pup as opposed to combining them? Your description almost sounds like a phase problem between the pups.

After re-reading these posts, this seems to make the most sense to me.