Serious discussion: buying Squier instead of Fender MIM or made in USA

[SurferJoe46]

As a Fender/Squier fan - I'd say that you have a valid opinion being in Europe and all.

But cost isn't everything. Although quality is usually represented by higher prices, I don't think they are mutually exclusive nor dependent on each other.

There are so many factors involved in the higher prices - unions being one of them and higher employee costs with taxes, Social Security, Disability and other perks factored in have to be reflected in the price of a MIA.

In a foreign land, those costs may not be as high - if they even exist at all. So something made off-shore from the US is typically lower cost and therefor also lower final price when it gets to the consumer.

Then factor in the idea that if it's made in the US - it has to somehow be better - which is maybe a fallacy - maybe not. But higher cost it is!

I own a few of the MIIs, a couple MIMs and one MIA and one CIJ not failing to mention a couple of MIC basses. All are great but for reasons that reflect their individuality and voices which are determinately different all the while copping a sound that represents what their design is.

A P is a P and a J is a J.

But let's face reality --- bass players play for other bass players. The audience and the rest of the band don't really care if you stood on your head and spit wooden nickles - just make the 'boomy noise' and they're happy.

I'm seriously beginning to believe that bass players hate other bass players and try to make them crazy with all this elitist snobbery.

HOWEVER ---- We ALL know that a MMs or T-Birds are really bad basses, so that's a given.

[topo morto]

My main bass cost about $40.

it is a 'p' type.

I have set it up so it plays fine.

it plays fine.

[AMJBASS]

I'll add just a couple of things... If you walk into a professional recording studio(as a hired gun), are subbing in with a high profile group, or playing in professional corporate settings, a Squier will not give those around you confidence at the outset. It may seem vain but thats the way it is. First impressions go a long way and professional gear definitely is a big asset. Another thing, I disagree about the electronics having that much to do with the sound. While I do agree that you can definitely improve the sound of MIM or Squier(although the CV series sound terrific with the Duncan designed pickups), a lot of the sound is in your hands. Attack, Tone, Control of the way you play. An instrument that is very responsive that can be set up to play perfectly with minimal effort goes a long way. There are some fantastic sounding Squiers out there. But I know that if I buy a higher end Fender(MIA, AV, Custom Shop) I am getting a bass that will play great out of the box with no sharp fret ends or high spots on the fingerboard.

I totally dig the new Squiers, so don't get me wrong!

[klaus486]

For me it's a question of longevity. How long is the cheaper bass going to last?

In the end a good bass is a good bass. You just have to find the "good" Squier bass to mod. Gilding a turd and all that....

I'd also like to say that maybe it's the PLAYER that really makes the difference. A great player will sound good no matter the instrument and a poor player cannot make a great bass sound good.

I have a modded Squier. It sounds great.
I have a custom Warmoth/Moses Graphite fretless. It sounds/feels/plays AMAZING.

[pacojas]

hey George,..

do you know why there are so many "Squier Worship" threads?

because Squier owners need to support one another... it's as if, if you buy one the need arises to validate your purchase by saying the MIA's are over-priced versions of a Squier!

[tjh]

Originally Posted by 2meterbassman

Hi there,

after 14 years playing bass (with an Ibanez lawsuit Jazz Bass copy and a 1980 Fender Precision Special), followed by 20 years only playing guitar (Gretsch 6118-T120, Gibson Les Paul deluxe, several Telecasters, several Stratocasters) I finally switched back to bass.

Because it's the best instrument for me and at all.:-)

As I sold my old basses, I had to buy a new bass.

I checked all the basses by Fender, from Custom shop to Squier.

And I bought a Squier Deluxe Jazz bass V, for under 300 Euros (an old classmate has about 20 musicshops in germany - means special prices for me...)

My opinion:
The Fender guys are very smart - they set different priceranges for Fender US, Fender MIM, Fender MIJ) and Squier, to satisfy all purses and needs.

And I checked them nearly all.

Result: The Fender US aren't worth the money.
The difference in price is much bigger than the difference in qualitiy and sound.
The Fender US basses are quite nice but too expensive.

Ok, they may use the better wood for US than for MIM and Squiers - but about 50 or 60 percent of the sound is the electronics - you can exchange that to better stuff, and it's still cheaper than an US or MIM Fender.

The audience won't hear a different anyways, nobody can hear the sound difference between an original 1960 stacked pots Jazz Bass and a 2012 Squier Jazz Bass, if the whole band is playing, the audience standing 20 Meters away from amplifiers, or even amplified via P.A.... No chance to hear a difference.

And where is the difference in qualitiy, if a mexican is building the bass in mexico - or his brother as an immigrant in the US is building the same bass in the USA?

I won't offend the Fender USA customers, but for me there is one conclusion:
for Fender style I only buy Squier and maybe make mods on it - and save the money to go on vacation with my girl....;-)

And what's your opinion?

Greetz

.. if/when you are asking for opinions, you will get no shortage of replies, views, comments, both informed and mis-informed .. and I guess mine, however anyone categorizes it ...

... if you "checked all the instruments by Fender, from Custom Shop to Squier", you must be tired, as it is no secret that Fenders vary greatly from bass to bass, even within each model ... BTW, you missed the stash I have at my house ...

... they dont always use 'better woods' for US basses over MIM, and Squiers (if thats what you were told), as there are bottom of the Squier line Affinity basses made of alder, and US made models made of alder, and no two cuts of wood are identical anyhow ...

.. in my opinion (you asked), tone is 50-60% (or more) in the hands of the person playing the instrument, and that doesn't leave 50-60% left over for 'electronics' as you stated ...

.. I agree that 99% of our audience will not care, know, or be able to discern the difference in the bass we are playing on stage, as long as the sound is palatable and not offensive, they are usually quite happy in fact ... I guess that is why I buy/play basses based on my taste and preference, and not theirs ... BTW, you just spent 200 Euros too much for a bass, you could have probably found something used for 100 Euros ... anything, it dont matter, they wont know the difference anyhow ...

.. as far as nationality of the person who builds my basses, I could care less .. and I don't even care what piece of land they are standing on as they do it ... the only thing that matters to me is that they have a decent idea of what they are doing to give me a reasonably priced product of adequate quality to adapt to my needs once I get it ... (and, just for clarification, I am as patriotic as anyone can possibly be in this day and age ... I served my county in war eras, and my children have done the same ... I buy American when possible, but I am also very realistic as to how small the world has become)

... I guess the bottom line to my opinion on pricing, is whether the sum of its components justify the price ... SOME of the Fender and Squiers will draw thier sale price (as a whole) in components, and some will not ... that leaves out the craftsmanship and taste aspect, for you to assign your value individually... if I can sell a US made Fender in pieces for at least what I paid for it as a whole, that price is justified to me... same for Squier, etc ... then I evaluate on a bass by bass case from there, what fits my needs/tastes/etc from those models/brands to find the gems (as they are all different, but, I am sure you found out when you 'tried them all' )

... by the way, I am also of the opinion that to take a bass off the wall, the way it is, and play it through whatever amp happens to be sitting on the sales floor for 15-20 minutes is not the most definitive test of the instrument ... sometimes they grow on you, and yes, sometimes we even change our opinioins ...

... thats my opinion ... and I am stickin to it ... for now

[vin*tone]

Originally Posted by AMJBASS

I'll add just a couple of things... If you walk into a professional recording studio(as a hired gun), are subbing in with a high profile group, or playing in professional corporate settings, a Squier will not give those around you confidence at the outset....

I recently saw Maceo Parker play and his guitarist was rocking a Squier.

He looked pretty confident.

[Baird6869]

Bottom line IMO.... A VM Squier is $299. Add the following to make is AS GOOD (apples to apples) as an American Standard from a component perspective (excluding the body wood, much better paint, rolled fretboard edges, graphite reinforced truss rod, etc):

Tuners: $75
Bridge: $90
Pickups: $100
Hardshell Case: $130

We are at $695 not including labour for installing all new parts and a full setup. So call it $800 total which is very low. Would anyone seriously prefer a modified Squier to one of the 2 used (but barely so) American Standard Fender basses available right now in the below link for LESS $$$? If so, I would love to hear why.

Mr. Crowley’s Fender Bass Blowout!

Play what makes you happy, but cost/value is relative.

Originally Posted by 2meterbassman

That's correct, it's not only the audience that counts.
The player has to have the perfect feeling for and with an instrument.

And everybody can buy whatever he wants as long it is allowed by law. ;-)

And I don't want to offend buyers of MIA Fenders as idiots or so.

I just wanted to say, that I think the difference in quality and sound between a MIA Fender and a Squier is not the same as the difference in price.

The Fodera thing is just another subject.
To me, a Fodera ist completely another class in quality, playability and sound as the Fender CS.
It's nearly the same price range, but the Fodera is much better.
Another proof for Fender US prizes are too high.

By the way: a friend of mine has a Fender CS early 60s Telecaster.
Great guitar. Love it.
As a stringbrake-substitute for concerts, he has a noname 200 euro telecaster. He gave both guitars a professional setup.
He is a professional and said, the Fender CS setup is awful. LOL

And he did it: he flipped the electronics, PUps and so on in both guitars. The cheap one with the CS PUs, the CS with the cheap PUs.
Result: the cheap guitar sounded better.
(Edit: not better than the CS with the CS PUps, but better much better than the CS guitar with the cheap PUps. The difference between the CS guitar with CS PUps and the cheap one with the CS PUps wasn't that big, as far we could remember.)
Means: electronics and PUps of guitars are the main factor for a good sound, woods is only 30 percent or so.
I even suspect, Fender fits worse PUps in the MIM and Squiers to produce an audible difference between the price ranges.
Clever guys. Not clever enough, if customers use their ears and not their eyes....;-)

[backup]

Originally Posted by vin*tone

I recently saw Maceo Parker play and his guitarist was rocking a Squier.

He looked pretty confident.

yes the JB/P-Funk families dont really seem to care too much about equipment . seen fred wesley's bass player funking venue provided rig at a local club. those cats are getting down seriously though

@OP
i once heard a saying going like "if you cant tell the difference between a fender and a squier you deserve a squier"

when i first went to a shop to try out a bass i actually liked squier VM jazz better than a higher end MIM.
but now i really dig the difference!
MIA fenders are better craftmanship. more balanced, better materials, better hardware, assembled nicely, wonderful neck and a sound that is killing!
if i had the money id get the highest end fender because they are DEFINETLY worth the money.
you can get a MIM classic 60's jazz for aroudn 500 in germany and its so much better than a 300 squier

[2meterbassman]

Originally Posted by tjh

.. if/when you are asking for opinions, you will get no shortage of replies, views, comments, both informed and mis-informed .. and I guess mine, however anyone categorizes it ...

... if you "checked all the instruments by Fender, from Custom Shop to Squier", you must be tired, as it is no secret that Fenders vary greatly from bass to bass, even within each model ... BTW, you missed the stash I have at my house ...

... they dont always use 'better woods' for US basses over MIM, and Squiers (if thats what you were told), as there are bottom of the Squier line Affinity basses made of alder, and US made models made of alder, and no two cuts of wood are identical anyhow ...

.. in my opinion (you asked), tone is 50-60% (or more) in the hands of the person playing the instrument, and that doesn't leave 50-60% left over for 'electronics' as you stated ...

.. I agree that 99% of our audience will not care, know, or be able to discern the difference in the bass we are playing on stage, as long as the sound is palatable and not offensive, they are usually quite happy in fact ... I guess that is why I buy/play basses based on my taste and preference, and not theirs ... BTW, you just spent 200 Euros too much for a bass, you could have probably found something used for 100 Euros ... anything, it dont matter, they wont know the difference anyhow ...

.. as far as nationality of the person who builds my basses, I could care less .. and I don't even care what piece of land they are standing on as they do it ... the only thing that matters to me is that they have a decent idea of what they are doing to give me a reasonably priced product of adequate quality to adapt to my needs once I get it ... (and, just for clarification, I am as patriotic as anyone can possibly be in this day and age ... I served my county in war eras, and my children have done the same ... I buy American when possible, but I am also very realistic as to how small the world has become)

... I guess the bottom line to my opinion on pricing, is whether the sum of its components justify the price ... SOME of the Fender and Squiers will draw thier sale price (as a whole) in components, and some will not ... that leaves out the craftsmanship and taste aspect, for you to assign your value individually... if I can sell a US made Fender in pieces for at least what I paid for it as a whole, that price is justified to me... same for Squier, etc ... then I evaluate on a bass by bass case from there, what fits my needs/tastes/etc from those models/brands to find the gems (as they are all different, but, I am sure you found out when you 'tried them all' )

... by the way, I am also of the opinion that to take a bass off the wall, the way it is, and play it through whatever amp happens to be sitting on the sales floor for 15-20 minutes is not the most definitive test of the instrument ... sometimes they grow on you, and yes, sometimes we even change our opinioins ...

... thats my opinion ... and I am stickin to it ... for now

Hi,

Not regarding that some of your arguments are just jokes, of course I didn't test ALL single instruments named Fender, I checked all LINES of instruments:

Every instrumenst of one line may sound different, some more, some less.
But the single line of instruments has a range of quality in sound etc. that is similar in that line.
And it's true: the number of "dead sounding" basses by Squier maybe higher than instruments by Fender MIA.
But I checked a MM Stingray last week. Costs: over 2.500 euros.
The whole instrument was a deadspot. No sound at all. Crap. Garbage. So: not only cheap instruments can be dead.

Sure: there are Squier and Fender MIA basses with alder bodies.
But there is cheap alder on the market and better alder.
There are one piece bodies - and 8 piece bodies and so on...
And there are Jaco Pastorius Signature Fender Jazz Basses with 2 piece bodies, and the bookmatched grain isn't really bookmatched and looked like crap.
Seen in a shop in germany - for 6.000 Euros! Idiots.

And of course, it's in your hands - but you can't buy hands or talent, so it can't be an argument in a discussion about prices of instruments. A better player will always sound better than me - not important on which instrument.

As you can read in this thread, a friend of mine made a pickup-flip test wiith a CS telecaster and a cheapo. Read it, and you know what I mean: 60 percent of an electric instrument's sound is the pickups and the electronics.

My first bass, an Ibanez lawsuit Jazz Bass (last lawsuit series).
The body was made of, mmmmh, pinguin excrements? I don't know which wood they used, maybe poplar, it was a 6 piece body!
The neck was something like maple I think.
And then, about 1980, I put a pair of DiMarzio pickups in it (the creme coloured and hot ones) - and you know what:
it blowed away every Fender Jazz Bass - we compared it in the shop where they switched the pickups for me.

And if I see the Squier Deluxe Jazz Bass V I bought some months ago and compare it to the old Ibanez (both in the same price range, including inflation, the Ibanez even with the DiMarzio PUps) - the Squier is a palace, and the old Ibanez is a pigsty...

Greetz

[2meterbassman]

Originally Posted by vin*tone

I recently saw Maceo Parker play and his guitarist was rocking a Squier.

He looked pretty confident.

Indeed,

and the guitarist in the 90s (don't know if he is the same as today) played a 70s Fender Stratocaster and his Gibson-Style Hollowbody Jazzbox was an old Ibanez lawsuit copy.

Soundes great.

Greetz

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by C.Linton

That's not proof-positive of anything, considering that many Squier owners (including me) don't feel the need to change anything to make it sound good, they already do sound good, as good as any Fender (even Ed Friedland says so). They are a treat to play as well. So your assertion holds no water.

The OP talked about switching out pickups and electronics. Follow along now.

[SurferJoe46]

Originally Posted by Baird6869

Would anyone seriously prefer a modified Squier to one of the 2 used (but barely so) American Standard Fender basses available right now in the below link for LESS $$$? If so, I would love to hear why.

Play what makes you happy, but cost/value is relative.

You want a reason why I wouldn't buy a used bass?

Because I don't buy USED BASSES - that's why.

It's either new ------ or I build it myself.

[AMJBASS]

Originally Posted by vin*tone

I recently saw Maceo Parker play and his guitarist was rocking a Squier.

He looked pretty confident.

Dude you know what I am talking about.

[Edward G.]

...and Fender frolics all the way to the bank.

The End.

[awakefie]

Originally Posted by Kmonk

I said "just about everything". You should go on vacation with your girlfriend.

I have considered buying an MIM just to see what I could with it as far as upgrades and modifications but haven't done it yet.

I just got a 94 MIM P used. Came from an Indonesian Jazz VM. I love just about everything. Prior to getting the 94 I was shopping the American Specials new. I also played several American Standards and several new MIMs. I also played several Squiers.

If I were to rank them in order of consistency and quality:

1) American Standard - the models I played consistently sounded and played the best.
2) New MIM - better electronics. More consistent than American Specials.
3) Squier CV - Decent but with lousy fretwork
4) American Special - Tried 4 different ones - did not care for them.

Came across my 94 MIM used at Music Go Round for 170. Dropped a set of Duncans in. All I want, all I need. 'Cept for that new MIJ Geddy I've been eyein', lol.

[C.Linton]

Originally Posted by michael_atw

The OP talked about switching out pickups and electronics. Follow along now.

I was specifically addressing your faulty assertion that Squiers NEED to be modded to sound good. I was ressponding yo YOUR post, not the OP's. Ya follow me?

[2meterbassman]

Originally Posted by Baird6869

Bottom line IMO.... A VM Squier is $299. Add the following to make is AS GOOD (apples to apples) as an American Standard from a component perspective (excluding the body wood, much better paint, rolled fretboard edges, graphite reinforced truss rod, etc):

Tuners: $75
Bridge: $90
Pickups: $100
Hardshell Case: $130

We are at $695 not including labour for installing all new parts and a full setup. So call it $800 total which is very low. Would anyone seriously prefer a modified Squier to one of the 2 used (but barely so) American Standard Fender basses available right now in the below link for LESS $$$? If so, I would love to hear why.

Mr. Crowley’s Fender Bass Blowout!

Play what makes you happy, but cost/value is relative.

Well, you're right, but:

I am not talking about name hyype, not about " I pay 1000 Dollars more, because it is made in US".

I only talk about the pure quality.

If you make all those mods you listed, plus a professional setup (with leveling the frets, preparing the nut, the bridge, everything), you can add about 100 Dollars.

So let's say 800 Dollars.
Compare it to a MIA Fender.
The playability (frets and so on) of the Squier will be better, because the Fender US factory setup is woorse than the setup of a pro. It's a fact, and it's my experience, plus experience of friends of mine who are even players with contract for Fender!

800 Dollars.

And now compare it with the quality, playability and sound of the MIA (a new one) which is much more expensive.
Forget the name, forget what you get if you sell it - watch only the pure quality.
because of a bit better lacqueer job and the other decal on the headstock, it's worth the difference in price?

My opinion and experience: no.

But it's ok, if you don't agree.
You're happy with your Originals - I am happy with my copy.

Greetz

[Baird6869]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

You want a reason why I wouldn't buy a used bass?

Because I don't buy USED BASSES - that's why.

It's either new ------ or I build it myself.

I have bought dozens of amazing basses used and saved tens of thousands of dollars. I couldn't have afforded them new.

Not sure of your reasoning, but if you only buy new, that is cool.

[SurferJoe46]

Somebody has to buy the new ones so others can buy them as used.

Sadly for those who buy used, they won't be buying any of mine since I don't sell my stuff.

I've built a few on consignment, but even once I just build one for the lark - I fall in love with it and then it isn't for sale.