Serious discussion: buying Squier instead of Fender MIM or made in USA

[ics1974]

I own 2 Squiers and a MIM Fender. My Squiers were setup almost perfect right out of the box. My MIM P-Bass looked like it was setup by a five year old but after I set it up myself it's a great bass now.
I have only tried a few MIA Fenders and yes they are better but way overpriced IMO.
The only way I would ever by one is if used.
My Squier 77 Jazz is amazing and I can honestly say it's a steal for $299

[hyperba55]

I have no dog in this hunt, and I hate internet arguments, so not even sure why I am replying, other than this post caught my eye.

I don't mean any disrespect or to be condescending, just IMO and in some cases literal fact.

I find it amusing when i read statements like "my $300 XYZ bass is just as good/better than a similar $1500 ABC bass" or "with LMNOP upgrades $300 bass Y is just as good as $1500 bass X."

I call shenanigans.

Are there exceptions? Absolutely. The below is IN GENERAL.

I have easily owned over 60-70 basses, everything from $100 no-names to Foderas, and everything in between. In addition, I have probably worked on over 40-50 basses in my life - many of them inexpensive, lower end brands for my students. I have been playing for 25+ years and have experience on everything from garage bands to semi-pro level touring. I know my basses.

I won't rehash some of the valid points that others make - resale value being one of the big ones - but if you spend any amount of time working on the basses there are several facts.

- As noted, the parts and wood aren't as good. You can replace the parts, but if you are replacing the wood, you might as well get a new bass. On these lesser expensive basses, the wood is almost universally poor - less stable, much softer. Here's a test - take the pickup out of a MIA Fender and a Squier. Rub a screwdriver along the wood - the Squiers are always much softer, easier to scratch. I once saw a Squier split in two where two of the pieces of wood was glued together. Never saw that on an MIA Fender. Related to that, screws strip more easily, and the finish tends to flake off a LOT more easily ...

- the neck - ever see a knot in a neck and what it can do long term? Ever let a Squier sit in a closet for a year and try to play it? Truss rod tweaks tend to be harder and the necks tend to be a lot less stable ... and I have seen multiple cheap basses with stripped truss rods. Not that this is unique to inexpensive basses, but definitely much more common ...

- The finish is typically thinner, many times you can see knots and glue lines beneath the finish. I had a MIM J Bass that you could easily see the glue line beneath the finish. This is relatively common. In fact, I have never seen a Squier finish that was comparable to an MIA ...

- Frets - Squier (and to a lesser extent MIM) Fender fret jobs tend to be not as well done. Most that I have seen tend to have significant overhang and need work just to be playable. And you need to be careful, the frets do like to pop off ...

- As many had mentioned the parts are sub-par as well. Keep in mind it's not only the cost of the parts that you need to worry about it's the installation as well (which a lot of players, especially younger players may not be able to do themselves).

- As far as setup goes - around here I can't even get a basic set-up for under $80. A decent fret job alone is in the $120-$150 price range.

- The parts are cheap - and it's not just the tuners and bridge - the knobs are very cheap - they tend to strip/fall off or the finish comes off easily.

Given the math, the numbers don't add up to make it worthwhile. You may have a Squier with an upgraded bridge, new pickups, better tuners, a new nut, better knobs, a thicker pick guard, and frets that no longer cut your hand but in the end you paid a lot of money to upgrade it, spent time upgrading it, but you still have a sub-par body and neck and the resale value will still be low. The bass will still be inferior to a well made quality bass.

Keep in mind that I think inexpensive instruments have their place, and they can be decent instruments in their own regard, but a spade is still a spade and if it quacks like a duck then most likely it is a duck, no matter how much lipstick you put on it (yes I know I am mixing metaphors). One of the values of inexpensive instruments is that beginning players can learn on them without doing too much damage $$-wise, i.e. they can learn to do their own set-up, or to swap the pickups out by themselves, etc.

One thing as well that i noticed - as i play more, and as i play more expensive instruments, i find that i appreciate the finer details in the more expensive instruments - the finish, the balance, the cut of the neck, etc. Many first year students really don't see much of a difference between a MIM and an MIA Fender - the 3rd and 4th year students do ...

YMMV, IME, etc. And I am sure there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there to the contrary, refer to the "exception" disclaimer above.

[rockinrayduke]

Well said. Thanks.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by 2meterbassman

What's your opinion?

My opinion is this is a weak attempt at yet another troll thread. If you're going to go trolling, at least try to be creative.

Pick a fresh topic instead of bleating out the same old pablum. Really, where's the entertainment value in the Squier/USA squabble?

You can do better than this. Yes you can!

[Bassmunnky]

Wow...This should be a Sticky..cuz it so damn right on!

Originally Posted by hyperba55

I have no dog in this hunt, and I hate internet arguments, so not even sure why I am replying, other than this post caught my eye.

I don't mean any disrespect or to be condescending, just IMO and in some cases literal fact.

I find it amusing when i read statements like "my $300 XYZ bass is just as good/better than a similar $1500 ABC bass" or "with LMNOP upgrades $300 bass Y is just as good as $1500 bass X."

I call shenanigans.

Are there exceptions? Absolutely. The below is IN GENERAL.

I have easily owned over 60-70 basses, everything from $100 no-names to Foderas, and everything in between. In addition, I have probably worked on over 40-50 basses in my life - many of them inexpensive, lower end brands for my students. I have been playing for 25+ years and have experience on everything from garage bands to semi-pro level touring. I know my basses.

I won't rehash some of the valid points that others make - resale value being one of the big ones - but if you spend any amount of time working on the basses there are several facts.

- As noted, the parts and wood aren't as good. You can replace the parts, but if you are replacing the wood, you might as well get a new bass. On these lesser expensive basses, the wood is almost universally poor - less stable, much softer. Here's a test - take the pickup out of a MIA Fender and a Squier. Rub a screwdriver along the wood - the Squiers are always much softer, easier to scratch. I once saw a Squier split in two where two of the pieces of wood was glued together. Never saw that on an MIA Fender.

- the neck - ever see a knot in a neck and what it can do long term? Ever let a Squier sit in a closet for a year and try to play it? Truss rod tweaks tend to be harder and the necks tend to be a lot less stable ... and I have seen multiple cheap basses with stripped truss rods. Not that this is unique to inexpensive basses, but definitely much more common ...

- The finish is typically thinner, many times you can see knots and glue lines beneath the finish. I had a MIM J Bass that you could easily see the glue line beneath the finish. This is relatively common. In fact, I have never seen a Squier finish that was comparable to an MIA ...

- Frets - Squier (and to a lesser extent MIM) Fender fret jobs tend to be not as well done. Most that I have seen tend to have significant overhang and need work just to be playable. And you need to be careful, the frets do like to pop off ...

- As many had mentioned the parts are sub-par as well. Keep in mind it's not only the cost of the parts that you need to worry about it's the installation as well (which a lot of players, especially younger players may not be able to do themselves).

- As far as setup goes - around here I can't even get a basic set-up for under $80. A decent fret job alone is in the $120-$150 price range.

- The parts are cheap - and it's not just the tuners and bridge - the knobs are very cheap - they tend to strip/fall off or the finish comes off easily.

Given the math, the numbers don't add up to make it worthwhile. You may have a Squier with an upgraded bridge, new pickups, better tuners, a new nut, better knobs, a thicker pick guard, and frets that no longer cut your hand but in the end you paid a lot of money to upgrade it, spent time upgrading it, but you still have a sub-par body and neck and the resale value will still be low. The bass will still be inferior to a well made quality bass.

Keep in mind that I think inexpensive instruments have their place, and they can be decent instruments in their own regard, but a spade is still a spade and if it quacks like a duck then most likely it is a duck, no matter how much lipstick you put on it (yes I know I am mixing metaphors). One of the values of inexpensive instruments is that beginning players can learn on them without doing too much damage $$-wise, i.e. they can learn to do their own set-up, or to swap the pickups out by themselves, etc.

One thing as well that i noticed - as i play more, and as i play more expensive instruments, i find that i appreciate the finer details in the more expensive instruments - the finish, the balance, the cut of the neck, etc. Many first year students really don't see much of a difference between a MIM and an MIA Fender - the 3rd and 4th year students do ...

YMMV, IME, etc. And I am sure there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there to the contrary, refer to the "exception" disclaimer above.

[Corevalay]

IME my MIM was nowhere close to the MIA's I own. It didn't sound as good, it felt cheaper, it didn't play as well. It didn't look as nice either. There's no doubt in my mind that the 3 MIA's I've owned are far superior instruments then the MIM. Don't get me wrong, I really liked playing the MIM. It was not a bad instrument by any stretch.

There's a very good chance the OP or others just plain like the sound or feel of a MIM or Squire instrument. In the end that's all that matters. To say there is no difference though, is just not true.

[Emibass]

....I don´t think you really have the money to buy a MIA Fender and that´s why you trash them

[Baird6869]

Originally Posted by 2meterbassman

And a MIA will be better than a Squier, in playability and quality.

Now you are arguing with yourself? Sad.

[Edward G.]

Originally Posted by Emibass

....I don´t think you really have the money to buy a MIA Fender and that´s why you trash them

OR...Why buy one really good one when you can own three OK ones for the same money?

Things that make you go 'hmmmm'...

[nostatic]

But an SX costs $11 and plays better than a Fedora.

(standing in for Spade2You)

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by Templar

My opinion is this is a weak attempt at yet another troll thread. If you're going to go trolling, at least try to be creative.

Pick a fresh topic instead of bleating out the same old pablum. Really, where's the entertainment value in the Squier/USA squabble?

You can do better than this. Yes you can!

Careful, or someone will say you're not being very friendly...


- georgestrings

[Baird6869]

Originally Posted by nostatic

But an SX costs $11 and plays better than a Fedora.

(standing in for Spade2You)

I actually REALLY, REALLY love my cheapy, all stock Squier VM fretless. I would never slag someone for playing a Squier.

Having said that, should I cancel my Fodera order and buy 20+ Squier VM's with the proceeds as the Fodera doesn't play and sound 20+ times better? Or maybe 50 or 60 SX basses?

People have like gambling, snorting cocaine, drinking expensive wine, collecting Rolex/Patek watches, buying comic books that cost tens of thousands of $$$, etc.... Value for money is super relative and subjective. Does a Patek tell 1000+ times better than a Timex? Does a Ferarri drive 30x better than a Kia?

Can't we just get along?

[conqr]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

As a Fender/Squier fan - I'd say that you have a valid opinion being in Europe and all.

But cost isn't everything. Although quality is usually represented by higher prices, I don't think they are mutually exclusive nor dependent on each other.

There are so many factors involved in the higher prices - unions being one of them and higher employee costs with taxes, Social Security, Disability and other perks factored in have to be reflected in the price of a MIA.

In a foreign land, those costs may not be as high - if they even exist at all. So something made off-shore from the US is typically lower cost and therefor also lower final price when it gets to the consumer.

Then factor in the idea that if it's made in the US - it has to somehow be better - which is maybe a fallacy - maybe not. But higher cost it is!

I own a few of the MIIs, a couple MIMs and one MIA and one CIJ not failing to mention a couple of MIC basses. All are great but for reasons that reflect their individuality and voices which are determinately different all the while copping a sound that represents what their design is.

A P is a P and a J is a J.

But let's face reality --- bass players play for other bass players. The audience and the rest of the band don't really care if you stood on your head and spit wooden nickles - just make the 'boomy noise' and they're happy.

I'm seriously beginning to believe that bass players hate other bass players and try to make them crazy with all this elitist snobbery.

HOWEVER ---- We ALL know that a MMs or T-Birds are really bad basses, so that's a given.

I disagree with almost everything opposite to these points

[Trayster2]

I've been dreaming (or "GASSING" as you TBers say), of this Squier bass lately: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Squier-V...84-i1166457.gc

I've heard its an awesome bass for the money.

Sure, it'd be nice to have a top-of-the-line Made in U.S. Geddy Lee Fender jazz bass, but I also don't want to be in debt either. Maybe if I'm still playing in 10-15 years I'll consider dropping some serious cash on a bass but I am still a beginner and lessons are most important right now!

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by hyperba55

I don't mean any disrespect or to be condescending, just IMO and in some cases literal fact.

I find it amusing when i read statements like "my $300 XYZ bass is just as good/better than a similar $1500 ABC bass" or "with LMNOP upgrades $300 bass Y is just as good as $1500 bass X."

I call shenanigans.

Are there exceptions? Absolutely. The below is IN GENERAL.

<Snip "you get what you pay for" rant>

YMMV, IME, etc. And I am sure there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there to the contrary, refer to the "exception" disclaimer above.

So you don't mean to be condescending but then you snicker at anyone who says a cheap bass is "as good as" some $1500 bass?

I call shenanigans on you.

Now , don't get me wrong. I DO agree with everything you said IN GENERAL. If you go out with a clipboard taking data on basses it's all true on average! An American Fender will on average end up being a better bass than a Squier.

But instead of saying "you get what you pay for", I'd turn it and say you pay for what you get!

Bottom line is that basses are made from trees. No two grow the same. Basses are build by people. They have good and bad days. But basses are NOT carefully priced to match the quality of each one. They are priced by model and general average value. (there is that average thing again)

So in my humble opinion your position basically says that cost is the way to insure you get a decent bass. And you are correct! Provided you don't bother to think, examine the bass, or have any knowledge as to what makes a good or bad bass. With PayPal money shipped blind over the INTERNET your rule will "ON AVERAGE" give you the best bass.

But most of us here are not noobs. We do know something about basses. We CAN tell when a bass sucks. So the rule is interesting, but there is a REASON I own a MIM Fender jazz V after trying every one in driving range. That is because my MIM Jazz beat them ALL (except one MIA $1400 that I was about to buy until I found the MIM for $300). And dare I say it? While in this particular run, I found no killer Squiers, they DO exist. And I personally played some HIDEOUS MIA jazz basses out there that they were asking big cash for! And as icing on the cake once I swapped my pickups for SCNs (were the standard MIA pickups for a time) I'd stack mine against ANY MIA for some things that count to me like tone and playability. You can talk about neck stability and I'm sure the Carbon fiber rods make the MIA neck more stable than mine. But mine is like ROCK! So do I need MORE stability? I can't remember the last time I had to tweak the truss rod. In fact the last truss rod that went out so far I couldn't even play the bass wasn't on the MIM Fender, or the SX basses or the Squier, or the OLP. It was on my well over a grand Conklin!

Which leads to the next factor. Namely do all of the things you pay big money for really matter? Does a precision machined gold plated bridge actually SOUND better than the old Fender bent metal thing? I have some serious doubts. Of course it looks a LOT better and some folks listen with their eyes. Fit and finish MAY be important to you, or it may not. But does it affect the TONE? For that matter does "tonewood" even matter. Sure it's killer to have a coffee table exotic wood bass, but does that SOUND any better than that nice three piece ash or alder on my SX basses? If there's a difference at all (and I personally believe there is) it's certainly minor!

So what I say is your rules on expensive basses will work to a degree for a noob buying sight unseen over the internet, but when *I* go into the bass store it's just one more myth that once any given bass is in my hands will be overruled or verified in that particular case. In my case I want to get the most bass I can for what I pay for it! Unthinking rules don't help me do that.

[EagleMoon]

I agree about wood not being as good on cheaper basses. Depends on what you want a bass for, a couple of years or something that will last you a lifetime. Wood does matter, and especially neck wood. It's got to be good and stable to be reliable and long lasting.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Klonk

Together with "which is the best bass for metal" this is the most popular topic on these boards. Unfortunately, that means you won't get a good deal of constructive debate, since the topic is well covered and buried by now.

That's what I've been trying to say, but he's not listening to me any more.

_{... dang ...}

[sigmafloyd]

One thing I learned is that every bass in guitar center sounds/feels equally bad. I had the worst impression of MIA basses until I found a used one at a non-chain store that had been properly setup. I left guitar center many times thinking the MIA basses were worse or at least equal to the Squiers because of how poorly they were taken care of.

BTW, my local GC has only 2 MIA Fenders and they have both been on the wall for over 2 years.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by diegobxr

Well actually I do have a fact.

The brand is SQUIER.
Not Squire.

For God's sake, it can't be so difficult to memorize. Would it kill you to spell it right???

SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER

Thanks.

Now feel free to continue beating this dead horse.
Cheers.

We are two hearts beating as one, brother. (See post #78)

[Baird6869]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

That's what I've been trying to say, but he's not listening to me any more.

_{... dang ...}

Time difference. Maybe he still has visions of Squiers dancing in his head.

I kid.... I kid.