Serious discussion: buying Squier instead of Fender MIM or made in USA

[Bert Slide]

Originally Posted by diegobxr

Well actually I do have a fact.

The brand is SQUIER.
Not Squire.

For God's sake, it can't be so difficult to memorize. Would it kill you to spell it right???

SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER

Thanks.

Now feel free to continue beating this dead horse.
Cheers.

I like reading these threads because it amuses me when people get upset at others who mispell SKWIRE...er...SQUIYER...er...SQUIRE...er...whateve r. I can't remember anyone in the 70's/80's complaining that others mispelled "Electra" or "Hondo II". Hey your brand loyalty is admirable I guess.

[mdogs]

Originally Posted by diegobxr

Well actually I do have a fact.

The brand is SQUIER.
Not Squire.

For God's sake, it can't be so difficult to memorize. Would it kill you to spell it right???

SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER SQUIER

Thanks.

Now feel free to continue beating this dead horse.
Cheers.

Honestly, how on earth could you care so much about such an absolutely insignificant issue? BTW, I always spell it wrong on here on purpose, just because I know that it just drives people like you crazy. I also put stamps on envelopes upside down and sideways because I know that it pushes the people at the post office over the edge...

[Edward G.]

This is a parlor game, y'know.

[BryanSwift]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

But let's face reality --- bass players play for other bass players. The audience and the rest of the band don't really care if you stood on your head and spit wooden nickles - just make the 'boomy noise' and they're happy.

I'm seriously beginning to believe that bass players hate other bass players and try to make them crazy with all this elitist snobbery.

Couldn't have said it better myself, or could I?
This is among the many many things that TB has taught me over the years..

[Diesel Kilgore]

My Squier quibbles....most obvious to me was an average finish. It looks killer from 5 feet away hanging on the wall. When you look at it up close there are probably 3 or 4 small spots of red that show through under the clear (my bass is silver). Like it was sprayed with a dirty gun. Also the sanding marks around the edges are very apparent. You cant see these things from afar, but when you are holding the bass you can see this. Other finish problems are the slightly offset truss rod inlay in the back of the neck and inconsistent rosewood fretboard. 1-2 frets have a different look and color. Just the choice in wood they used which probably wouldnt fly on a higher end Fender.

Second largest problem I have is the sloppy truss rod. No big deal. But the weather really seems to effect the adjustment.

Other things are pg screws that are put in crooked and gaps in the machine head posts off the headstock.

For the price its all no big deal and I get compliments on it from other axe weilding friends. Most seem to like the looks and feel of the bass. And most importantly the sound. The Squier gets the job done. The P pups are sweet in this thing.

[Turock]

Originally Posted by hyperba55

I have no dog in this hunt, and I hate internet arguments, so not even sure why I am replying, other than this post caught my eye.

I don't mean any disrespect or to be condescending, just IMO and in some cases literal fact.

I find it amusing when i read statements like "my $300 XYZ bass is just as good/better than a similar $1500 ABC bass" or "with LMNOP upgrades $300 bass Y is just as good as $1500 bass X."

I call shenanigans.

Are there exceptions? Absolutely. The below is IN GENERAL.

I have easily owned over 60-70 basses, everything from $100 no-names to Foderas, and everything in between. In addition, I have probably worked on over 40-50 basses in my life - many of them inexpensive, lower end brands for my students. I have been playing for 25+ years and have experience on everything from garage bands to semi-pro level touring. I know my basses.

I won't rehash some of the valid points that others make - resale value being one of the big ones - but if you spend any amount of time working on the basses there are several facts.

- As noted, the parts and wood aren't as good. You can replace the parts, but if you are replacing the wood, you might as well get a new bass. On these lesser expensive basses, the wood is almost universally poor - less stable, much softer. Here's a test - take the pickup out of a MIA Fender and a Squier. Rub a screwdriver along the wood - the Squiers are always much softer, easier to scratch. I once saw a Squier split in two where two of the pieces of wood was glued together. Never saw that on an MIA Fender. Related to that, screws strip more easily, and the finish tends to flake off a LOT more easily ...

- the neck - ever see a knot in a neck and what it can do long term? Ever let a Squier sit in a closet for a year and try to play it? Truss rod tweaks tend to be harder and the necks tend to be a lot less stable ... and I have seen multiple cheap basses with stripped truss rods. Not that this is unique to inexpensive basses, but definitely much more common ...

- The finish is typically thinner, many times you can see knots and glue lines beneath the finish. I had a MIM J Bass that you could easily see the glue line beneath the finish. This is relatively common. In fact, I have never seen a Squier finish that was comparable to an MIA ...

- Frets - Squier (and to a lesser extent MIM) Fender fret jobs tend to be not as well done. Most that I have seen tend to have significant overhang and need work just to be playable. And you need to be careful, the frets do like to pop off ...

- As many had mentioned the parts are sub-par as well. Keep in mind it's not only the cost of the parts that you need to worry about it's the installation as well (which a lot of players, especially younger players may not be able to do themselves).

- As far as setup goes - around here I can't even get a basic set-up for under $80. A decent fret job alone is in the $120-$150 price range.

- The parts are cheap - and it's not just the tuners and bridge - the knobs are very cheap - they tend to strip/fall off or the finish comes off easily.

Given the math, the numbers don't add up to make it worthwhile. You may have a Squier with an upgraded bridge, new pickups, better tuners, a new nut, better knobs, a thicker pick guard, and frets that no longer cut your hand but in the end you paid a lot of money to upgrade it, spent time upgrading it, but you still have a sub-par body and neck and the resale value will still be low. The bass will still be inferior to a well made quality bass.

Keep in mind that I think inexpensive instruments have their place, and they can be decent instruments in their own regard, but a spade is still a spade and if it quacks like a duck then most likely it is a duck, no matter how much lipstick you put on it (yes I know I am mixing metaphors). One of the values of inexpensive instruments is that beginning players can learn on them without doing too much damage $$-wise, i.e. they can learn to do their own set-up, or to swap the pickups out by themselves, etc.

One thing as well that i noticed - as i play more, and as i play more expensive instruments, i find that i appreciate the finer details in the more expensive instruments - the finish, the balance, the cut of the neck, etc. Many first year students really don't see much of a difference between a MIM and an MIA Fender - the 3rd and 4th year students do ...

YMMV, IME, etc. And I am sure there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there to the contrary, refer to the "exception" disclaimer above.

Excellent post. Speaking as an owner of Squiers, and MIM, CIJ, MIA Fenders, I agree completely.

[Munjibunga]

A little lipstick can significantly improve the appearance of most ducks.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by mdogs

Honestly, how on earth could you care so much about such an absolutely insignificant issue? BTW, I always spell it wrong on here on purpose, just because I know that it just drives people like you crazy. I also put stamps on envelopes upside down and sideways because I know that it pushes the people at the post office over the edge...

Someone has to make the case for illiteracy.

[hyperba55]

And I thought I put enough disclaimers in the original post. Let's try this again.

I clearly mean "on average" and there "are exceptions." There will be plenty of anecdotal evidence to counteract what I wrote in my post. There are good Squier/MIM/MIC/etc. basses out there. You may have one. I am not slamming anyone's bass or choice of bass. Basses are highly subjective, like sexual partners, cars and amps. To each their own and i don't criticize what others play. One man's Fodera is another man's Hondo. You may think my bass sucks. You may think I smell. Cheap basses have their place. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.

And here I said that I hate internet arguments (so i like to see this more as a debate). It's a pet peeve of mine when other posters take snippets of my posts and take them out of context so i will reply to your whole post. That being said ...

Originally Posted by bassbenj

So you don't mean to be condescending but then you snicker at anyone who says a cheap bass is "as good as" some $1500 bass?

I call shenanigans on you.

There is a difference between being condescending and being amused at something. And you can't call shenanigans on me, i already called shenanigans.

Originally Posted by bassbenj

Now , don't get me wrong. I DO agree with everything you said IN GENERAL. If you go out with a clipboard taking data on basses it's all true on average! An American Fender will on average end up being a better bass than a Squier.

So you say " you agree with me" then spend the next several paragraphs refuting me.

Originally Posted by bassbenj

But instead of saying "you get what you pay for", I'd turn it and say you pay for what you get!

Bottom line is that basses are made from trees. No two grow the same. Basses are build by people. They have good and bad days. But basses are NOT carefully priced to match the quality of each one. They are priced by model and general average value. (there is that average thing again)

Basses are actually made from wood/lumber that comes from trees (it is an important point, i am not trying to be a douche). While it is true that no two grow the same, there is a reason why some wood is more expensive than others and why some wood is more suitable for building basses than other wood, and why the better wood is more expensive - less knots, looks better, less moisture content, better curing, warps less, etc.

Originally Posted by bassbenj

So in my humble opinion your position basically says that cost is the way to insure you get a decent bass. And you are correct! Provided you don't bother to think, examine the bass, or have any knowledge as to what makes a good or bad bass. With PayPal money shipped blind over the INTERNET your rule will "ON AVERAGE" give you the best bass.

Not really my position - it can be better summed that (in general) lower cost basses have lower quality components that are in some cases core to the bass itself. Cost is not necessarily the way to ensure that you get a better bass but in general the more expensive basses will have better components and be better instruments and someone is wise to think twice before spending a lot of money upgrading a cheap bass as opposed to buying a more expensive bass with better components. The specific context is a Squier vs a MIA fender, but other basses fit. Not sure where you get the sentence about not thinking, that is way off base and putting words in my "mouth." i am in fact advocating the opposite - that ppl *should* think.

Originally Posted by bassbenj

But most of us here are not noobs. We do know something about basses. We CAN tell when a bass sucks. So the rule is interesting, but there is a REASON I own a MIM Fender jazz V after trying every one in driving range. That is because my MIM Jazz beat them ALL (except one MIA $1400 that I was about to buy until I found the MIM for $300). And dare I say it? While in this particular run, I found no killer Squiers, they DO exist. And I personally played some HIDEOUS MIA jazz basses out there that they were asking big cash for! And as icing on the cake once I swapped my pickups for SCNs (were the standard MIA pickups for a time) I'd stack mine against ANY MIA for some things that count to me like tone and playability. You can talk about neck stability and I'm sure the Carbon fiber rods make the MIA neck more stable than mine. But mine is like ROCK! So do I need MORE stability? I can't remember the last time I had to tweak the truss rod. In fact the last truss rod that went out so far I couldn't even play the bass wasn't on the MIM Fender, or the SX basses or the Squier, or the OLP. It was on my well over a grand Conklin!

Judging by the amount of threads started asking about the best bass for metal (or claiming that my $200 XYZ bass is sooooo much better than any $2000 bass) many may disagree with your first three sentences.

That being said, it is cool that you found a good MIM Fender - i *know* they exist (I have a CIJ Fender from the mid-80's that I love that I spent decent amount of $$$ upgrading, so I have done it too. It's still not as good as my MIA J Bass, and as a side note I am using a broken Popsicle stick to prop up one of the pickups because the screw stripped the first time i tried to adjust it ). There are great Squiers and not-so-great MIA's - See disclaimer above ...

Originally Posted by bassbenj

Which leads to the next factor. Namely do all of the things you pay big money for really matter? Does a precision machined gold plated bridge actually SOUND better than the old Fender bent metal thing? I have some serious doubts. Of course it looks a LOT better and some folks listen with their eyes. Fit and finish MAY be important to you, or it may not. But does it affect the TONE? For that matter does "tonewood" even matter. Sure it's killer to have a coffee table exotic wood bass, but does that SOUND any better than that nice three piece ash or alder on my SX basses? If there's a difference at all (and I personally believe there is) it's certainly minor!

To answer your first question - do all of those things really matter? Absolutely. Let's be clear though - I wasn't talking about gold plated bridges and the like, let's simply compare the Squier bridge vs. the MIA bridge. Cheap bridges get spurs more, corrode quicker, are generally harder to intonate, and yes, many ppl do think higher-mass bridges sound better (they definitely have more sustain). Same thing with tuning pegs (cheap ones slip and don't stay in tune as well, etc.).

And as far as more expensive bridges go, take a look at a Fodera bridge vs. a Squier bridge, and then tell me with a straight face there is not really a difference.

And is tone the only thing that matters? What about playability? Ease of maintenance? Versatility? Gig-readiness? Resale value? Durability? Stability? And why shouldn't looks matter? I love playing bass and I take my craft seriously - why would i not want a nice looking bass? Maybe I should paint all of my basses primer grey. Maybe i should do it to my car as well, after all, the color doesn't affect the driving. Thinking about doing my house in grey as well

Originally Posted by bassbenj

So what I say is your rules on expensive basses will work to a degree for a noob buying sight unseen over the internet, but when *I* go into the bass store it's just one more myth that once any given bass is in my hands will be overruled or verified in that particular case. In my case I want to get the most bass I can for what I pay for it! Unthinking rules don't help me do that.

There you go again .... Not rules, just guidelines, that IMO/IME are helpful in many circumstances and to many ppl, not just noobs over the internet. I don't advocate not thinking - just the opposite.

[hyperba55]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

A little lipstick can significantly improve the appearance of most ducks.

Put it on my bill ...

[hyperba55]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

There are so many factors involved in the higher prices - unions being one of them and higher employee costs with taxes, Social Security, Disability and other perks factored in have to be reflected in the price of a MIA.

In a foreign land, those costs may not be as high - if they even exist at all. So something made off-shore from the US is typically lower cost and therefor also lower final price when it gets to the consumer.

But let's face reality --- bass players play for other bass players. The audience and the rest of the band don't really care if you stood on your head and spit wooden nickles - just make the 'boomy noise' and they're happy.

I'm seriously beginning to believe that bass players hate other bass players and try to make them crazy with all this elitist snobbery.

Good points about the differences in costs. Viva globalization!

On the other hand, I quite caring about what other bassist think about my playing and basses. I realized it's all subjective when i hear things like "why don't you play a 5 string - REAL bassists play 5 strings" or "i liked that solo but *I* would have slapped it" etc. I play for myself, and my instruments are chosen because of what i like, i am not trying to impress any of my fellow bassists. I think a lot of these posts come from ppl looking to validate their purchases, i.e. I own a MIM therefore it's a good bass. I got past the point of needing validation years ago. Kind of like when ppl post threads asking for advice on TB and then argue with everything that doesn't agree with or validate their viewpoint.

There is a lot of collective wisdom on TB, and i think it would behoove ppl to listen sometimes.

And totally get your last point - one would think we are guitar players!

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by hyperba55

Put it on my bill ...

[rockinrayduke]

Originally Posted by hyperba55

And I thought I put enough disclaimers in the original post. Let's try this again.

I clearly mean "on average" and there "are exceptions." There will be plenty of anecdotal evidence to counteract what I wrote in my post. There are good Squier/MIM/MIC/etc. basses out there. You may have one. I am not slamming anyone's bass or choice of bass. Basses are highly subjective, like sexual partners, cars and amps. To each their own and i don't criticize what others play. One man's Fodera is another man's Hondo. You may think my bass sucks. You may think I smell. Cheap basses have their place. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.

And here I said that I hate internet arguments (so i like to see this more as a debate). It's a pet peeve of mine when other posters take snippets of my posts and take them out of context so i will reply to your whole post. That being said ...



There is a difference between being condescending and being amused at something. And you can't call shenanigans on me, i already called shenanigans.




So you say " you agree with me" then spend the next several paragraphs refuting me.



Basses are actually made from wood/lumber that comes from trees (it is an important point, i am not trying to be a douche). While it is true that no two grow the same, there is a reason why some wood is more expensive than others and why some wood is more suitable for building basses than other wood, and why the better wood is more expensive - less knots, looks better, less moisture content, better curing, warps less, etc.



Not really my position - it can be better summed that (in general) lower cost basses have lower quality components that are in some cases core to the bass itself. Cost is not necessarily the way to ensure that you get a better bass but in general the more expensive basses will have better components and be better instruments and someone is wise to think twice before spending a lot of money upgrading a cheap bass as opposed to buying a more expensive bass with better components. The specific context is a Squier vs a MIA fender, but other basses fit. Not sure where you get the sentence about not thinking, that is way off base and putting words in my "mouth." i am in fact advocating the opposite - that ppl *should* think.




Judging by the amount of threads started asking about the best bass for metal (or claiming that my $200 XYZ bass is sooooo much better than any $2000 bass) many may disagree with your first three sentences.

That being said, it is cool that you found a good MIM Fender - i *know* they exist (I have a CIJ Fender from the mid-80's that I love that I spent decent amount of $$$ upgrading, so I have done it too. It's still not as good as my MIA J Bass, and as a side note I am using a broken Popsicle stick to prop up one of the pickups because the screw stripped the first time i tried to adjust it ). There are great Squiers and not-so-great MIA's - See disclaimer above ...



To answer your first question - do all of those things really matter? Absolutely. Let's be clear though - I wasn't talking about gold plated bridges and the like, let's simply compare the Squier bridge vs. the MIA bridge. Cheap bridges get spurs more, corrode quicker, are generally harder to intonate, and yes, many ppl do think higher-mass bridges sound better (they definitely have more sustain). Same thing with tuning pegs (cheap ones slip and don't stay in tune as well, etc.).

And as far as more expensive bridges go, take a look at a Fodera bridge vs. a Squier bridge, and then tell me with a straight face there is not really a difference.

And is tone the only thing that matters? What about playability? Ease of maintenance? Versatility? Gig-readiness? Resale value? Durability? Stability? And why shouldn't looks matter? I love playing bass and I take my craft seriously - why would i not want a nice looking bass? Maybe I should paint all of my basses primer grey. Maybe i should do it to my car as well, after all, the color doesn't affect the driving. Thinking about doing my house in grey as well



There you go again .... Not rules, just guidelines, that IMO/IME are helpful in many circumstances and to many ppl, not just noobs over the internet. I don't advocate not thinking - just the opposite.

Thank you again.

[Bobster]

I think the point that may be getting missed here is that it's always possible to buy something that is more expensive, but doesn't necessarily perform it's intended purpose any better. It may be prettier, better constructed, or higher quality, but still doesn't accomplish the intended function any better than the cheap one. I think this is at least partly the case here.

To use a non-bass example, if a person needs a watch, they can go buy a Rolex with a stainless steel case, and Swiss movement for $5,000. It will tell time with reasonable accuracy, and give the date. Or, that person can buy a Casio solar, atomic timekeeping, stopwatch with five alarms for $80.

Both watches will perform the intended function, but there is a huge price difference between the two.

I do realize there are other benefits associated with purchasing either, but both perform the intended function (telling the time). So, at this point, the question becomes what we are willing to pay for the other benefits, which could include name brand and construction materials.

Either watch makes a statement about the owner, just as the purchase of the Fender or Squier makes a statement about the owner and their value system.

For these reasons I don't think there is a lot of value in this debate and I think that recent improvements in the Squier line (and other imports) have made them a much better value than ever before.

All the best,

Bob

[PrietoBass]

I paid about $15-20 for my Timex, and I'd had it for as long as I can remember. A new battery and/or plastic strap every now and then and is as good as new.

I paid $250 for my Squawier J, and $225 for my Squawier Affinity V... whazzup with that?

[SurferJoe46]

Unsubscribed.

[Achille]

thanks guys, best thread ever!!

[michael_atw]

A used USA Fender costs like, a whole week paycheck (after taxes) more than a Squier Affinity (let alone a "higher" Squier model). Is that really that much of a price difference? Don't smoke for a month, don't go out on weekend bar runs for a couple months...lay off the expressos for a few dozen mornings...that's it.

[boynamedsuse]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

She does look better with lipstick.

[BryanSwift]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

Unsubscribed.