Show Us Your Rob Allen Basses Part III

[tedw]

Originally Posted by Chef

I'm holding it my hand right now, and I don't see such a thing.

It's mentioned in their specs but I agree... I don't we switch for this on the website pictures.... Maybe the Low Cut Filter is just always on when the unit is in use.

Regardless, sounds like a great tool.

[tedw]

Originally Posted by morebassbaby

Also, for any interested, my band's website www.lastyearswinners.com has 3 songs on it that you can listen to, the last of which "Saying No" is my Deep Mouse plugged into a REDDI direct box straight to the board. Like I said maybe not a traditional context for a mouse but it works for me!

All three songs are great! Nicely done and great bass playing. As a Mouse fan, I especially enjoyed your work on "Saying No." Very cool.

[BigBeatNut]

Originally Posted by tedw

Chef - One question on the Para DI. The product website specs include "Low Cut Filter: Fixed, 12dB/oct. @ 35Hz."

Sounds like that would hurt the lowest 2 or 3 notes on a 5er (?).

[KJung]

Originally Posted by BigBeatNut

Sounds like that would hurt the lowest 2 or 3 notes on a 5er (?).

Nope. Very few, if any cabs, can reproduce the fundamental of the lowest notes on the B string. Most of what you hear with those very low notes is the second harmonic. A nice 12db cut at 35hz will not be noticable. That would not 'fix' the issue we are talking about above, but is great for speaker protection and/or more headroom and volume from heads that do not have proper control of the sub-bass in their design (e.g., the old SWR amps, some of the EA amps, etc.).

[morebassbaby]

Originally Posted by tedw

All three songs are great! Nicely done and great bass playing. As a Mouse fan, I especially enjoyed your work on "Saying No." Very cool.

Oh man, Thanks so much! It's really cool to hear other musicians and specifically bass players opinions. We're just getting started with this EP and now starting to gig. It's so much fun to play with a great group of guys. Playing at church has been rewarding but also not without some stress. The guys in my new band are just the most down to earth, easy going fellas ever so it's a real joy!

[BigBeatNut]

Originally Posted by KJung

A nice 12db cut at 35hz will not be noticable.

Isn't 6dB supposed to be the smallest perceptible change ... Or 3dB ? Trying to remember.

And isn't a low B at 31 Hz ? Even further down the slope than 35.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by BigBeatNut

Isn't 6dB supposed to be the smallest perceptible change ... Or 3dB ? Trying to remember.

And isn't a low B at 31 Hz ? Even further down the slope than 35.

More like 2 db, but that is a different issue. And, remember db is a log scale, so the difference between 2db and 3db is a LOT.

Again, the key is to get that sub bass OUT completely. Even if your ears barely hear it, your speakers are trying to reproduce it, which sucks headroom from the amp (low freq's take more power to reproduce than high freqs, which is why a 15 watt guitar amp can bury a 200 watt bass amp), and will also drive your speakers to their mechanical limits (the pistoning thing), which results in actually LESS low end as you push your rig.

Most amps have at least some form of hi passing or deep bass reduction built in, so an external hi pass is not really needed. However, some (like some of the Mesa stuff, some of the SWR stuff) unfortunately reproduce the sub bass, and in some cases, can benefit from a tightening of the deep low end.

Again, while the FUNDAMENTAL of an open B string is around 30hz, even a lot of subwoofers can't reproduce that at high volumes. The realy 'meat' and definition of those low notes is at the second harmonic, which is why the open B can sound GREAT, for example, through an old Eden 410XLT that rolls off hard at 60hz.

Since the vast majority (well, virtually all) bass guitar cabinets roll off significantly at 45hz or significantly above that, pumping 35hz frequencies into them is a pure waste of power and speaker excursion IMO. It is also why bass guitars in concert settings often sound so bad.. all that sub bass coming out of those massive subs. Be careful what you wish for!

[tedw]

Originally Posted by KJung

More like 2 db, but that is a different issue. And, remember db is a log scale, so the difference between 2db and 3db is a LOT.

Again, the key is to get that sub bass OUT completely. Even if your ears barely hear it, your speakers are trying to reproduce it, which sucks headroom from the amp (low freq's take more power to reproduce than high freqs, which is why a 15 watt guitar amp can bury a 200 watt bass amp), and will also drive your speakers to their mechanical limits (the pistoning thing), which results in actually LESS low end as you push your rig.

Most amps have at least some form of hi passing or deep bass reduction built in, so an external hi pass is not really needed. However, some (like some of the Mesa stuff, some of the SWR stuff) unfortunately reproduce the sub bass, and in some cases, can benefit from a tightening of the deep low end.

Again, while the FUNDAMENTAL of an open B string is around 30hz, even a lot of subwoofers can't reproduce that at high volumes. The realy 'meat' and definition of those low notes is at the second harmonic, which is why the open B can sound GREAT, for example, through an old Eden 410XLT that rolls off hard at 60hz.

Since the vast majority (well, virtually all) bass guitar cabinets roll off significantly at 45hz or significantly above that, pumping 35hz frequencies into them is a pure waste of power and speaker excursion IMO. It is also why bass guitars in concert settings often sound so bad.. all that sub bass coming out of those massive subs. Be careful what you wish for!

Thanks for explaining this. I am disappointed at a lot of concerts because the bass is so poorly defined. It's good to understand why. I'm always amazed that even skilled sound engineers seem to be so ineffective and getting a clearly defined bass tone.

[nostatic]

I just tried the Fdeck HPF3 and it does work as advertised. Especially useful for MB-2 and Mouse where you don't have a bass control. I don't think I really need it between my dual band comp and the Monique which seems to have some HPF baked in (or something - it really gives a nice tight low end). I may end up parting with it.

The Rob Allen through the Monique - epic win. I tracked with it last night. Epic win 2.

[tedw]

Originally Posted by morebassbaby

Oh man, Thanks so much! It's really cool to hear other musicians and specifically bass players opinions. We're just getting started with this EP and now starting to gig. It's so much fun to play with a great group of guys. Playing at church has been rewarding but also not without some stress. The guys in my new band are just the most down to earth, easy going fellas ever so it's a real joy!

Glad you've found such a good band. A three piece band can be so much fun! Sorry playing at church has been a source of stress. I've had my ups and downs playing at church. There have been seasons where I've been asked to lead and others (like now) where my job is to follow. Times when playing my own style feels so right and times when I have to play what's asked of me and find a way to get joy out of that. I've worked with great leaders and others who can't remember what they've promised from one day to the next. Sound guys who know what they're doing and love the bass and some who can't spell it. There seems to be a time for everthing and bad times are followed by good. Through it all, we're all doing it for a much higher purpose than ourselves and I have to keep reminding myself of that. You never know who is going to be touched by your passion and steady service, so I've learned. Hang in there. :-)

[morebassbaby]

Originally Posted by tedw

Glad you've found such a good band. A three piece band can be so much fun! Sorry playing at church has been a source of stress. I've had my ups and downs playing at church. There have been seasons where I've been asked to lead and others (like now) where my job is to follow. Times when playing my own style feels so right and times when I have to play what's asked of me and find a way to get joy out of that. I've worked with great leaders and others who can't remember what they've promised from one day to the next. Sound guys who know what they're doing and love the bass and some who can't spell it. There seems to be a time for everthing and bad times are followed by good. Through it all, we're all doing it for a much higher purpose than ourselves and I have to keep reminding myself of that. You never know who is going to be touched by your passion and steady service, so I've learned. Hang in there. :-)

Truth.
Thanks Ted, things for the most part are really good...just a little sound persons/band members disagreements at times. Now if I could just convince them to NOT buy an electronic drum set as the house kit. Can never get them to sound organic, which doesn't do the Mouse any favors. "Oh the Beastie Boys play at your church?" ;-)
Luke

[KJung]

My favorite Rob Allen rig..... Bergantino AE210(b), Markbass F500, and my wonderful fretted Mouse. Woody and organic sounding, with a nice controlled low end and lots of midrange character with a minimum of fussing. Loud enough for any 'Mouse appropriate' gig for me.

[morebassbaby]

So beautiful Ken!! I've been really tempted to get some kind of a small markbass rig to both be a bit of a contrast from my thunderchild/puma rig and just as a back up. For simplicity sake I've played through Markbass mini cmd 121P, and it is appealing to have it all in a nice easy combo form. Wonder how that would be with the mouse. **wheels turning**
Luke

[KJung]

Originally Posted by morebassbaby

So beautiful Ken!! I've been really tempted to get some kind of a small markbass rig to both be a bit of a contrast from my thunderchild/puma rig and just as a back up. For simplicity sake I've played through Markbass mini cmd 121P, and it is appealing to have it all in a nice easy combo form. Wonder how that would be with the mouse. **wheels turning**
Luke

I love that Thunderchild vibe for most things. I kind of dig a more tightly voiced cab with some midrange complexity and 'warmth' for the Mouse/Rob Allen thing. It has a bit of the vibe of DB players using those little bitty GK metal micro 112's. It kind of forces the tone into more of a 'warm, woody' thing versus a huge, open, clean thing, for better or worse.

The F500 has much in common with the Puma500 (new model) tonewise. The two bands of semi-parametric EQ, along with the variable lo pass filter (the VLE) works nicely with the Mouse in difficult rooms.

Anyway, hard to make a Rob Allen sound anything but good.... but there are 'different flavors of good' just like with a DB that are greatly impacted by the amp/cab.

I can actually get pretty close to this tone with my Thunderchild and the FDeck Hi Pass filter set relatively high, but the mids are still very clean and pure, versus that bit of 'bark and grit' coming from that tighty voiced little Berg cab.

[JacobWhaler]

I love these basses, good thread.

[BigBeatNut]

Originally Posted by KJung

Again, the key is to get that sub bass OUT completely. Even if your ears barely hear it, your speakers are trying to reproduce it, which sucks headroom from the amp (low freq's take more power to reproduce than high freqs, which is why a 15 watt guitar amp can bury a 200 watt bass amp), and will also drive your speakers to their mechanical limits (the pistoning thing), which results in actually LESS low end as you push your rig.

The [sfx] Thumpinator and Micro-thumpinator sound like a perfect solution to that problem.

Not used one myself but some people rave about them.

More info from the builder:

/// Low-B
The Thumpinator has been designed to be used with a 5 string bass and it does not interfere with the low-B.

/// What does the micro-Thumpinator do?
It removes the subsonic content. In other words that you cannot hear but you amp and speakers work to deliver.
It doesn’t simply attenuates or mitigate the effect of subsonic content. It removes it completely.

[nostatic]

Rob Allen through a Baer ml112 is a crazy good sound. Really well controlled but full lows, and the paper cone mid renders the piezo highs really nicely.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by BigBeatNut

The [sfx] Thumpinator and Micro-thumpinator sound like a perfect solution to that problem.

Not used one myself but some people rave about them.

More info from the builder:

Those are nice units. However, the FDEck III is superior in every way (sharper, stronger cut-off, variable, and battery or A/C option.

[77PBass]

Has Rob ever done a 5 string Mouse bass?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by 77PBass

Has Rob ever done a 5 string Mouse bass?

I seem to remember seeing one 'one off' E-C strung custom 5 string Mouse a while back. A Mouse with a B string would most likely not be a very good thing, due to the very short scale. The MB-5 has much of the same tonality as the Mouse in a 35" scale.