Single-coil P-bass (or Tele bass) vs J-bass neck pickup tone?

[chadds]

Originally Posted by MUSHROOMSeAcOw

Can someone explain how the design of a pickup effects the sustain or decay of a note (barring stronger magnets keeping the strings from vibrating)?
.

All other things being equal, why look further than that? Yet....
Single pole, versus Double is a possibility. Size of poles. Number of winds. Shielding. Humcancelling. Whether the pickup is good for metal......

[mongo2]

Originally Posted by MUSHROOMSeAcOw

Can someone explain how the design of a pickup effects the sustain or decay of a note

A pickup will transduce a string's vibration as long as it is vibrating. If the magnets are very strong (as you mentioned) or the pickup is to close to the strings, it's possible that the string vibration can be damped.

[vin*tone]

A J with neck pickup soloed has no where near the beef of a SC P bass.

[MUSHROOMSeAcOw]

Originally Posted by chadds

All other things being equal, why look further than that? Yet....
Single pole, versus Double is a possibility. Size of poles. Number of winds. Shielding. Humcancelling. Whether the pickup is good for metal......

But since different magnets are used in different model pickups in the same design (Alnico vs Ceramic magnets in a jazz pickup, for example) that isn't the variable that affects sustain between a singlecoil P and a J. What about the design of a singlecoil P makes it inherently more thumpy and quicker to decay?

edit: I was primarily speaking in reference to this post:

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

I own a Classic '51 reissue and have owned a Jazz. The pickups on these instruments are very different from each other, and are located at different distances from the bridge.

The single coil Precision/Tele is essentially a Telecaster guitar pickup altered for a four-string bass, and shares that pickup's single-polepiece per string design. This gives it a fast attack and a fast decay -- much like the upright bass Leo was looking to supplant.

The Jazz pickup was born ten years later, and incorporates the improvements that Leo had made when he redesigned the P in 1957. It has the same two-polepiece per string as the split-coil Precision, which eases the attack and adds sustain. The spacing of the bobbin under the strings is different, and no doubt the other specs as well.

As I mentioned, I have owned both, and I found no similarities between the two basses. Each one has a very distinct voice that will not be mistaken for the other. In my case, I love the single-coil P and am not fond of the Jazz, so the J is long gone.

I have also owned both basses, and I feel that while lpdeluxe's 51 Reissue may indeed have a "fast attack and a fast decay" as he describes, I don't think the design of the '51 pickup is responsible for that. The Classic Vibe '51 P has the same pickup design, and it was agressive and had sustain for days. The tonal character actually reminded me of a Stingray, and it makes sense: One pole per string. I think the thumpy, fast-decay sound lpdeluxe describes has much more to do with the use of flatwound strings and the method of play than the pickup design.

[vin*tone]

Originally Posted by vin*tone

A J with neck pickup soloed has no where near the beef of a SC P bass.

I'm going to contradict myself now....

I just got home and A/Bed my J and 51RI. The 51 has a newly installed Fralin split in it ... and the J has a recently installed Model J set. The Modej J neck (which is a split) is actually now bassier than my P.

The previous pickup in the 51 - Duncan SCPB2 was a beef monster.

[Rip Topaz]

I listened to your clips of the pickup swap, and I was noticing how similar the Fralin sounds to my split-coil P. I have a SCPB and a split-coil P, but the Fralin REALLY sounds like my split coil.

I'm the oddball that preferred the SCPB2.

[mongo2]

Originally Posted by MUSHROOMSeAcOw

What about the design of a singlecoil P makes it inherently more thumpy and quicker to decay?

Here's my theory...

Since the SCPB has one narrow polepiece per string, there is a narrow discrete magnetic field through which the string passes.

If a string is plucked too vigorously and/or the pickup is slightly misligned with the string, it's possible for the string to initially leave and re-enter the magnetic field. The bridge design of two smooth saddles can contribute to any polepiece/string misalignment.

When the string leaves and re-enters the magnetic field, the E-field collapses and is restablished quickly which results in a transient that can sound like a thump to the ear and which was responsible for the speaker damage originally reported with these instruments. It also led to the development of the bipole pickup design which spreads the mag field over a larger area the strings can't pass out of so the transient is tamed. Speakers today are also more robust so damage due to the transient is less likely.

As for quicker decay, it's possible that the increased amplitude of the thump makes the ear expect a more even decay but is fooled to thinking the note drops off suddenly when it's actually just settling into a vibration pattern that stays within the mag field. If the note isn't held long enough, all that may be heard is the transient/thumpy part of the note leading to an impression of rapid note decay.

I've found that using a pickup with larger diameter poles or a bar magnet design without poles helps tame that transient as does proper string alignment and a less vigorous string attack.

YMMV

[johng999]

I ran across this thread today, and as I own both I thought I would add my two cents. Actually, the current bass "herd" includes three jazz basses (69, CS64, Am Deluxe 5), one 69 Tele bass, and three pbasses (55 CS reissue, 78 ash, Classic 70'ws MIJ). IMHO all three styles have very different sounds.
The single coils Tele/pBass has a very warm, even sound up and down the neck. I have been starting to use these more lately in my work because audience response has been strong. I cut through with these better than any of the others.
The jazzes all have the characteristic jazz tone, and although I grew up playing a jazz, I don't think I ever use just the neck pickup alone. The sound is just not that good to me - somewhat dark, and doesn't cut.
My 78 pBass has the classic midbass boost and sounds just like it should, It is my recording favorite.

By the way, I put rounds on my Tele, and it sounds really good - think Ron Wood on Beck-0la!

[Matthijs]

So would you guys say the bass on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajxHkA-8tqw

is a single coil P? I really love this sound, but can't quite place it.

[kurosawa]

Originally Posted by mongo2

A pickup will transduce a string's vibration as long as it is vibrating. If the magnets are very strong (as you mentioned) or the pickup is to close to the strings, it's possible that the string vibration can be damped.

Right, if you screw up and get 'em too close you will hear a faint warbling. Some designs have inherently greater pull than others. I would think that undesirable, because the nearer you can get the pickup, the bigger the bottom and the better the signal-to-noise ratio. And a bunch of other things, too, that you can read about in this guitar pickup height article (same principles): http://www.ratcliffe.co.za/articles/pickupheight.shtml

[lc12345678]

Has anyone ever replaced their Jazz bass pickups with two '51 P-bass pickups?
If not, is there a bass with that pickup configuration?

[mongo2]

Originally Posted by lc12345678

Has anyone ever replaced their Jazz bass pickups with two '51 P-bass pickups?
If not, is there a bass with that pickup configuration?

I seriously thought about it but I felt that a standard OEM '51 P style single coil pickup would not be as effective in the bridge position as it is in the neck position due to the mismatch of the string spacing and the polepiece spacing in the bridge position for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I found I never use the bridge pickup on any bass anyway so I didn't bother.

I remember seeing pictures of a 3 pickup version styled like a Strat.

[bassdude51]

I have a CS '51 and also the MIJ '51. Got a Jazz Bass too. The single coil P pickup is about a 1/4 of inch closer to the neck than the J neck pickup. I don't know how much difference that makes in sound and tone.

Of course the sc P pickup has the magnet poles directly over the strings and the J pickups have 2 poles for each string. I don't know how much difference that makes in sound and tone.

The ohms for the sc P pickup and the J neck pickup are about the same, 7k ohms give or take.

All in all, it would seem that the 2 pickups should sound about the same. But they don't sound the same. The sc P pickup sounds better than the J neck pickup. I don't know why.

It seems that any slight difference in pickup construction can make a very noticeable difference in sound and tone.

One complaint that I have with the sc P pickup is that the E and G strings are much louder than the D and A. The reason why is because the magnet poles are flush and with the 7.5 inch radius of the neck, the A and D strings are a good 1/8 inch farther away from the top of the magnet poles.

Either the A and D poles should be poking up higher or a flatter neck radius would be better (and/or both).

I find that the MIJ sc P pickup sounds better than the Fender CS pickup. The MIJ sc P pickup has raised poles for the A and D.

Bottom line, the sc P and the J neck pickup sound very different with the sc sounding better.

[Rip Topaz]

Hmm.. Gives me visions of a radiused SC P pickup, with a wider spaced version for the bridge...

[deeptubes]

Originally Posted by mongo2

I seariously thought about it but I felt that a standard OEM '51 P style single coil pickup would not be as effective in the bridge position as it is in the neck position due to the mismatch of the string spacing and the polepiece spacing in the bridge position for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I found I never use the bridge pickup on any bass anyway so I didn't bother.

I remember seeing pictures of a 3 pickup version styled like a Strat.

My Fender HM is sort of Strat-like - 5 way switch, 3 single coil lace sensors. The center pickup is offset towards the bridge.

[uOpt]

Still scheduled to route out my Jazz body to fit the 51 pickup I have.

From what I hear in different but not unsimilar basses the '51 Precision pickup is quite a bit fatter, and the Jazz pickup more "hi-fi", more articulate. I attribute it to the changes in magnetic field introduced by two things: (1) the string as it vibrates over the Jazz pickup has less induction when in the center and more on the outer edges and (2) there is twice the magnetic field strength in a Jazz, it has the same magnets but 2x of it, with essentially the same coil.

I compare it to messing with the polepieces in PAF like pickups. If you put in polepieces that cause a wider field - namely the hex screws you get a more articular but less round sound. If you put a blade and hence remove the bias toward the center position it sounds more transparent, or "hi-fi".

I like the '51 P quite a bit more so far.

[Thumper]

I've gone this route: J/P/J, GHS Precision Flatwounds, Lollar Jazz PUPs, MIM P PUP, separate output jacks for each set. I use the neck Jazz PUP for thump, the P PUP for growl, never really use the Jazz bridge PUP.

I'm very happy with this bass, it has made my Roadworn P expendable (mainly cuz I need a P5).

The Jazz neck PUP is deep but articulate.

[sven kalmar]

i owned a mj 51 reissue. I liked the sound very much. i used rounds, pick or fingers. Someone said RAW. i got this dark barking sound, with a pick. I loved that PU. eventually i sold it.

[marchone]

Originally Posted by johng999

By the way, I put rounds on my Tele, and it sounds really good - think Ron Wood on Beck-0la!

Wood's plec'ed Rotos on a Tele were the polar opposite of Bill Black's flatwound finger-style sound on a '56 P. There's more versatility from these single coil basses than a lot of people credit them for. But, it is not a split coil Precision or a dual single coil Jazz bass. All three have different sounds and IMHO don't overlap.