Tuning down a half-step is awesome!

[Baird6869]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Sure an E is an E, but an Eb is not an E. When you change the key the song is in to a lower key, the vocal parts are changed to a lower key as well. Instead of singing a song in the key of B, for example, the song will now be sung in the key of Bb.

+1.

I played with a singer that wanted to play Bon Jovi Livng on a Prayer but the key change at the end is super high. Song is originally in E, we played it in C# and it sounded great. Bass strings were floppy as hell though as I had to tune down 3 semitones.

[funkafied]

Only recently found out that Stevie Wonder's bass player, Nathan Watts, always tunes his basses down half a step. Reckons it makes him sound more fluid and funkier...

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by funkafied

Only recently found out that Stevie Wonder's bass player, Nathan Watts, always tunes his basses down half a step. Reckons it makes him sound more fluid and funkier...

There've been a few articles about it. This is not why he does it.

[Floyd Eye]

A string change and a set up takes a total of less than a half hour. Transposing 60+ songs and remembering not to play them the way you have always played them is a pain in the butt. Not to mention the loss of certain open notes. It seems to me that if you are in an orchestra or if you are writing original songs, maybe there is little advantage to tuning down. For those of us who play covers and play them all 1/2 step down, the advantage is immeasurable.

[funkafied]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

There've been a few articles about it. This is not why he does it.

Apologies. Took some liberties there I guess! From the horses mouth then.

"I got that from listening to Hendrix, and then when I got with Stevie a lot of his stuff was in Eb so I just left it that way. I have to transcribe when I read music, but tuning down gives it a looser feel, it gives me a looser sound. You know, a lot of buzz and stuff."

From http://www.ricksuchow.com/press-group-304.html

[hgiles]

Originally Posted by wolfmancharlie

If they are electric keys they can probably adjust their keys down, our keyboard player just turns a knob and it is there.Straight up piano isn't going to work .The piano player would have to transpose the songs. By the way I have found dropping into E# and staying there seems to be easier on the necks of my basses also.

'Dropping' into E#, huh? That's perfect!

I can see a benefit of doing it (drop tuning), but it provides absolutely nothing in the way of ones development as a musician. That is what I have issue with.

If it were a quick fix in an urgent situation, fine, but it's not quick -- at least not quick enough to address any urgent issue.

Ive seen piano players play in C all night and just move the transpose switch around all night. He impressed me with his quick arithmetic, but not with his musicianship.

[Floyd Eye]

Some people are far less interested in proving what a bad ass musician they are and just want to play.

[hgiles]

I just started playing bass as a third instrument a few months ago, I am not a bad ass, but I am interested in doing things in a way that will benefit me most in the long term. And I am much more interested in learning 'music' than I am about learning a song.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by hgiles

I just started playing bass as a third instrument a few months ago, I am not a bad ass, but I am interested in doing things in a way that will benefit me most in the long term. And I am much more interested in learning 'music' than I am about learning a song.

Well, I have been playing bass for over 30 years. I have spent most of my life " Learning music".

For a guy who has been playing bass for 3 months to pass judgment on people who are doing something he obviously has no understanding of is very rich, at least.

[Razzpukin]

There is far too many "passing judgment" here on this site.

[rfslick]

The benefits to the vocalist are real. The song writer in my band insists on writing everything a step higher than is comfortable for me as his guitar part is written there. My response is "I can sing this one song and have my voice blown out for the rest of the day or we can lower it and I can sing the rest of the day." It's simple for us as bass players to play in any key any where on the neck. It's more difficult for guitar players to play different chords as well as some open strings with a key change. Tuning down a whole or half step seams to me to be minimal intrusion, even with slight setup change.

[gustobassman]

Originally Posted by hgiles

I just started playing bass as a third instrument a few months ago, I am not a bad ass, but I am interested in doing things in a way that will benefit me most in the long term. And I am much more interested in learning 'music' than I am about learning a song.

Well, in away, you will still be "learning" the music. Regardless of how it is tuned.

I have been playing for almost 30 years myself (i started REALLY young), and i finally have had this revelation. I too, got into 5 string for the sole purpose of having the extra range and not having to "tune down". I would assume many did the same as part of their learning/growing process.

When i walked in the door on this new project, the singer/guitarist was already in Eb and i tried to just play my 5'er as i normally would. You know, transposing, and just finding a good work-around solution so i wouldn't have to tune down. Once i did tune to Eb, however, the songs took a whole new life. A much better feel, and i really was able to lock up well with the tricky guitar lines that we have. The overall groove just breathed better because i was now closer to the timbre he was getting.

[mwbassace]

Originally Posted by Razzpukin

There is far too many "passing judgment" here on this site.

+1

[Groove Doctor]

Anyone who's played anything other than a Concert Pitch instrument will know how difficult it is to play with guitarists. Two common keys of songs are Emaj and Amaj....

1. Gtr: Emaj, Trumpet: F#maj, Alto Sax: C#maj

2. Gtr: Amaj, Trumpet: Bmaj, Alto Sax F#major

So, when guitar detuned a semitone....
1. Trumpet: Fmaj, AS: Cmaj
2. Trumpet: Bb major, AS: Fmaj.

MUCH easier for them too.



(....... but if you've never played with a horn section I guess this means little to you.)

[hgiles]

I am not passing judgement at all and there are some obvious good arguments for tuning down. However none of the reasons are going to make you a better musician. That's what I am after, that's why I picked up bass -- to understand 'music' better.

FWIW, I have a degree in music and play piano, soprano sax, alto sax, tenor sax, bari sax, and bass. I can tell you that I never asked a band to put a song in an 'easier' key. I can play in jazz keys, soul keys, Motown keys, gospel keys, and yes -- even guitar keys.

Also, I play (recording and live performance) quite regularly in horn sections of all sizes and genres and with a lot of musicians that have 30 years under their belt that played for 4 presidents and yadda yadda and they haven't yet memorized the chords to "Take the A Train" and even worse they can't play the radio! I just gave a lesson to a guy this afternoon that's been playing 40 years and I had to explain to him the circle of 4ths....But I digress (sigh).

I am not trying to get in a pissing contest with anyone, just trying to understand why someone would ever want to tune down. I now understand why some of you would do it, but I simply don't see anything it would bring to my musicianship -- neither as a bassist nor a saxophonist.

Originally Posted by Groove Doctor

Anyone who's played anything other than a Concert Pitch instrument will know how difficult it is to play with guitarists. Two common keys of songs are Emaj and Amaj....

1. Gtr: Emaj, Trumpet: F#maj, Alto Sax: C#maj

2. Gtr: Amaj, Trumpet: Bmaj, Alto Sax F#major

So, when guitar detuned a semitone....
1. Trumpet: Fmaj, AS: Cmaj
2. Trumpet: Bb major, AS: Fmaj.

MUCH easier for them too.



(....... but if you've never played with a horn section I guess this means little to you.)

[Floyd Eye]

I guess you don't understand why a guitarist would tune down or use drop D either. Just because YOU don't understand it doesn't mean it is not valid and it sure as hell doesn't mean doing it detracts from your musical abilities. Even though I'm sure we're all very impressed by your college degree. lol

[Razzpukin]

Originally Posted by hgiles

I am not trying to get in a pissing contest with anyone, just trying to understand why someone would ever want to tune down. I now understand why some of you would do it, but I simply don't see anything it would bring to my musicianship -- neither as a bassist nor a saxophonist.

Its a different sound. No one is saying that its easier it harder, or that it makes you better or worse, just a different sound. You might as well ask why someone would play with effects, doesn't bring anything to you musicianship, but people still do it.

[hgiles]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

I guess you don't understand why a guitarist would tune down or use drop D either. Just because YOU don't understand it doesn't mean it is not valid and it sure as hell doesn't mean doing it detracts from your musical abilities. Even though I'm sure we're all very impressed by your college degree. lol

I am pretty sure I understand why it's done. I just don't think it's a good enough reason for me. I also understand why one would want to use a capo, or a transpose button or whatever.

Between down-tuning and a capo it would be possible to play all night in the key of E, but not sound like it. Cool, right?

Right.

[Ric5]

Originally Posted by willsellout

My guitarist asked me to tune down. I told him that I bought a 5 string so I didn't have to tune down

+1

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by hgiles

I am pretty sure I understand why it's done. I just don't think it's a good enough reason for me. I also understand why one would want to use a capo, or a transpose button or whatever.

Between down-tuning and a capo it would be possible to play all night in the key of E, but not sound like it. Cool, right?

Right.

Not much point in arguing with a man of your caliber, all pedigreed and whatnot.