Tuning down a half-step is awesome!

[Massimo636]

Originally Posted by hgiles

I am pretty sure I understand why it's done. I just don't think it's a good enough reason for me. I also understand why one would want to use a capo, or a transpose button or whatever.

Between down-tuning and a capo it would be possible to play all night in the key of E, but not sound like it. Cool, right?

Right.

Just because a different type of sound/tuning isn't something that you personally enjoy you don't have to turn your nose down at it. It obviously isn't for you and you aren't making yourself or your opinion look any better by professing how much you know about music if you can't understand something as simple as different tunings.

[gustobassman]

Originally Posted by hgiles

I am pretty sure I understand why it's done. I just don't think it's a good enough reason for me. I also understand why one would want to use a capo, or a transpose button or whatever.

Between down-tuning and a capo it would be possible to play all night in the key of E, but not sound like it. Cool, right?

Right.

Very true. All the points you have made are completely valid. But, here's where i think a difference may be in the arguments.

For some, who may be more technically inclined/schooled in the "why and how" of music - I.e., not tuning down, just play it with a capo, etc.. - this is the obvious solution. Absolutely using your training you will be more apt to use a "proper" approach to tackling the musical issue in front of you.

For those who may not be as concerned with the "why and how", the approach is most likely focused on immediate gratification or the finished product. What it the music sounds as a whole, and not breaking it down into more than that... trying something different, like tuning down or using a capo.. may just be the key to musical bliss.

Or maybe not...

EDIT - had to clear up my statement.

[Floyd Eye]

Or maybe people have as much training ( or not) and just feel that if YOUR ENTIRE BAR/COVER BAND TUNES TO Eb, it is far simpler to tune to Eb than it is to use a friggin' capo or transpose 100 songs, essentially re-learning how to play each one, accounting for open notes and no longer having the use of Drop D or lower tunings.

Could be that too huh?

[gustobassman]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Or maybe people have as much training ( or not) and just feel that if YOUR ENTIRE BAR/COVER BAND TUNES TO Eb, it is far simpler to tune to Eb than it is to use a friggin' capo or transpose 100 songs, essentially re-learning how to play each one, accounting for open notes and no longer having the use of Drop D or lower tunings.

Could be that too huh?

Absolutely. I wasn't trying to generalize. You are spot on.

[khutch]

Originally Posted by claytitan

I'm pretty surprised at the reluctance to tune down a half step by some on this thread. Especially for cover bands. Major artist do this all the time for live music. I sing about 1/3 of the songs in my band and I can tell you 1/2 step can make a huge difference. If the singer can do a lot more songs well 1/2 step down isn't that better for everyone.

I guess some are reluctant and some are dismissive. In part that is because of the belief that you have to down tune to change keys or that "your F# is not my F#". I play songs that change keys several times from start to finish, in fact most of them do. I can't ask the church to pause between verses so I can retune. I can play any song in any key in any tuning. So can you if you learn the tuning you use. You will never learn your tuning if you think that "your F# is not my F#". F# is F#, it changes position if you change your tuning but you need to know where it is. Those who think they need to tune like their guitarist clearly do not understand this fact. Probably their guitarist doesn't either. But that doesn't mean their aren't reasons to tune differently and I mentioned some of them above.

Originally Posted by gustobassman

When i walked in the door on this new project, the singer/guitarist was already in Eb and i tried to just play my 5'er as i normally would. You know, transposing, and just finding a good work-around solution so i wouldn't have to tune down. Once i did tune to Eb, however, the songs took a whole new life. A much better feel, and i really was able to lock up well with the tricky guitar lines that we have. The overall groove just breathed better because i was now closer to the timbre he was getting.

Here is another good reason and it is one that is supported by some of the most highly trained musicians in the world. I started downtuning my four simply to get lower notes because I didn't take to the Ibanez fiver I tried first. The obvious choice was BEAD but I was also intrigued by the few here who tune CGDA since that gives you the range of a five. It seemed like the fifths tuning might be unwieldy because of the long reaches to cover common patterns. They are ok on a 27 inch cello but on a 34 inch bass guitar?? Then I found out that a small and growing number of double bassist use the tuning on their 43 inch instruments and I made the jump. They report a curious advantage that echos the quote above. For the first time they feel in synch with the rest of the string section that is all tuned in fifths. The traditional EADG tuning always left them feeling like lonely little petunias in a onion patch.

There are many valid reasons to downtune or use alternate tunings. No one should dismiss your decision to do that. Whatever tuning you use, you should know where your notes are though. Those of us who play many kinds of music, written out music, or in ensembles with instruments that cannot be retuned know that the tuning you use in no way limits your ability to play music in any key. You just need to know where the notes are!

Ken

[rfslick]

There are many valid reasons to downtune or use alternate tunings. No one should dismiss your decision to do that. Whatever tuning you use, you should know where your notes are though. Those of us who play many kinds of music, written out music, or in ensembles with instruments that cannot be retuned know that the tuning you use in no way limits your ability to play music in any key. You just need to know where the notes are!
Ken
+1
For an untrained hack cover artist like myself, playing the downtuned songs makes it easier for me to recognize chord structures the guitarist is using. I'm still limited because of the fact that besides being a mediocre bass player, I'm also an extremely mediocre guitar player.

[wolfmancharlie]

Originally Posted by hgiles

'Dropping' into E#, huh? That's perfect!

I can see a benefit of doing it (drop tuning), but it provides absolutely nothing in the way of ones development as a musician. That is what I have issue with.

If it were a quick fix in an urgent situation, fine, but it's not quick -- at least not quick enough to address any urgent issue.

Ive seen piano players play in C all night and just move the transpose switch around all night. He impressed me with his quick arithmetic, but not with his musicianship.

Sir.I have been playing and Learning bass for 40 years. My band tunes down to accomodate the vocalist. Our guitar player,who has a degree in music, has tuned down for the last 30 years.When I got the gig with this band 10 years ago I was told that this was the way they played and , after a few practices,I found the my backup vocals were much easier. I know we are not worthy ,.Just wanted to say Hello back to a fellow bass player.

[wvbass]

Originally Posted by wolfmancharlie

Sir, I do not feel that my developement as a musician is any of your bussiness.I have been playing and Learning bass for 40 years without anyone's aproval of how or what key I am tuned to.

Easy big guy. When - multiple times - you mean E flat and say E sharp, you are making yourself a target in the vicious world of talkbass. Tuning down is not a quick fix,and anyone who thinks it implies diminished ability needs to pay a little more attention to what their bass heroes do when they play live. Keep doing what you are doing, and don't let a bunch of rude kids pi$$ you off.

[dukeisdog]

Originally Posted by hdracer

If you are playing a five string why tune down to Eb?
I am working on a song right now that will be played in Eb.
I thought that's what the B string was for.

I agree. When I was playing in the band I was in a last year I just learned everything in standard tuning with the Low B because I was able to hit all of the flats needed with the B. What the OP replied does make sense, though.

[wolfmancharlie]

Originally Posted by wvbass

Easy big guy. When - multiple times - you mean E flat and say E sharp, you are making yourself a target in the vicious world of talkbass. Tuning down is not a quick fix,and anyone who thinks it implies diminished ability needs to pay a little more attention to what their bass heroes do when they play live. Keep doing what you are doing, and don't let a bunch of rude kids pi$$ you off.

You are correct,I shouldn't let them bother me and should probably get Good Night To All.

[natw42]

Depends on the band, the music, etc. 'standard' tuning is not the be all end all. I've played in bands where the song was transposed to accommodate the vocalist and I played in standard. There have been other bands where I've down tuned. There's no right or wrong as long as the music is done justice IMO.

[LaBassGuy]

I've always tuned standard so forgive me ignorance here, but does anyone tune half step up on a five string bass?

1) Is the neck designed to handle the additional tension?

2) Would this not solve the floppy B (well, now C) string problem?

[stingraysvt]

Originally Posted by Makatak

I beg to differ and think in a covers band it sounds lame , ive got perfect pitch so its my problem only I know, but im hearing tunes in my head in the original key and playing them half a step down just sounds wrong .
I know its easier on the Guitar player and easier on the singer, so in my opinion in a covers band all the songs are written for you so unless its a case of just getting drunk and ogling all the pretties dancing in front of you, where`s the challenge ?

I don't confess to having perfect pitch but I find myself fumbling over not hearing a song in it's original key.

New band I'm in tunes down and since I figure many songs out by pitch, the half step just messes my world up.

Also the string tension differences throws me off as well. Slapping and popping just acts really spongy.

[Massimo636]

Originally Posted by LaBassGuy

I've always tuned standard so forgive me ignorance here, but does anyone tune half step up on a five string bass?

1) Is the neck designed to handle the additional tension?

2) Would this not solve the floppy B (well, now C) string problem?

Yes, you can tune a 5-string up to C if you wish and people do it. If you use a lighter string set with gauges made for the C tuning the tension will be fine. If you keep the same strings on your bass that is set up for B and you tune the bass up a half-set you will just need to adjust your truss rod. (The B on a 5-string shouldn't be floppy if you have the proper strings.)

[gordon5377]

Not to hijack this thread but can anyone give me some talking points that will help convince my bandmates to detune??

Our lead singer says that he likes standard tuning because he is more comfortable "pushing" his voice. This is funny (not haha, funny as in 'strange') since there are times during the course of our gigs and even practice where he struggles with high vocal parts.

Additionally, our drummer claims to have perfect pitch and he says he can tell when a band is detuned. He does not like the way it makes the songs sounds (he describes them as feeling 'darker'). Whatever that means.

We are starting to learn more songs which were originally played a half step down and it is a pain in the butt detuning your gear to learn the song then tuning back up.

Any suggestions?

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by gordon5377

Not to hijack this thread but can anyone give me some talking points that will help convince my bandmates to detune??

Our lead singer says that he likes standard tuning because he is more comfortable "pushing" his voice. This is funny (not haha, funny as in 'strange') since there are times during the course of our gigs and even practice where he struggles with high vocal parts.

Additionally, our drummer claims to have perfect pitch and he says he can tell when a band is detuned. He does not like the way it makes the songs sounds (he describes them as feeling 'darker'). Whatever that means.

We are starting to learn more songs which were originally played a half step down and it is a pain in the butt detuning your gear to learn the song then tuning back up.

Any suggestions?

The guitarists and you should just do it. Your "perfect pitch" drummer and singer will never notice. Don't tell them about it for a few weeks. .

[F-Clef-Jef]

Originally Posted by hgiles

I am pretty sure I understand why it's done. I just don't think it's a good enough reason for me. I also understand why one would want to use a capo, or a transpose button or whatever.

Between down-tuning and a capo it would be possible to play all night in the key of E, but not sound like it. Cool, right?

Right.

From that statement, it appears you don't really understand.

One of my bands tunes down about a 1/4 step, to A=432hz, (for some rather funny and amusing reasons) Including the keyboardist and trumpet player, does that make us bad musicians? We also play a few tunes that are tuned to open D tuning, should we not do a quick retune so that the song sounds like the recording? (it literally takes 5 seconds for the guitarist and I to retune...)

I played for a few months with a blues band where the guitar player tuned to Eb, ('cuz that's what a lot of blues guitarists do). It would have been totally moronic of me not to tune to Eb also. Could I have not retuned? Sure! But it would have sounded awfully odd for the guitarist to be playing in the key of E (actually Eb if you want to get technical, which a lot of blues songs are), and I'd be playing an Eb on the 6th fret of my A string, up nearly an octave from the original note.

Blues guitarist: "Uh, hey bass player, can you play the E (for him) an octave lower than that?"
Me: "No, and I won't retune because I went to college, and I am perfectly capable of transposing, dear sir."

A little flexibility goes a long way. You never know, you just might learn something.

[Calaverasgrande]

I tune to C

[Massimo636]

Originally Posted by F-Clef-Jef

From that statement, it appears you don't really understand.

One of my bands tunes down about a 1/4 step, to A=432hz, (for some rather funny and amusing reasons) Including the keyboardist and trumpet player, does that make us bad musicians? We also play a few tunes that are tuned to open D tuning, should we not do a quick retune so that the song sounds like the recording? (it literally takes 5 seconds for the guitarist and I to retune...)

I played for a few months with a blues band where the guitar player tuned to Eb, ('cuz that's what a lot of blues guitarists do). It would have been totally moronic of me not to tune to Eb also. Could I have not retuned? Sure! But it would have sounded awfully odd for the guitarist to be playing in the key of E (actually Eb if you want to get technical, which a lot of blues songs are), and I'd be playing an Eb on the 6th fret of my A string, up nearly an octave from the original note.

Blues guitarist: "Uh, hey bass player, can you play the E (for him) an octave lower than that?"
Me: "No, and I won't retune because I went to college, and I am perfectly capable of transposing, dear sir."

A little flexibility goes a long way. You never know, you just might learn something.

Exactly.

[guy n. cognito]

Forcing yourself to transpose potentially hundreds of songs, simply to prove a point, does not make you a better musician..........

I know Mustang Sally in C. I can play it with my eyes closed, completely ****-faced, while chatting up cute girls. Am I a better musician if I learn in it B because my band tunes down a half step and I want to be arrogant about it? No. I'm an idiot for wasting all that time.