Tuning down a half-step is awesome!

[hdracer]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

Forcing yourself to transpose potentially hundreds of songs, simply to prove a point, does not make you a better musician..........

I know Mustang Sally in C. I can play it with my eyes closed, completely ****-faced, while chatting up cute girls. Am I a better musician if I learn in it B because my band tunes down a half step and I want to be arrogant about it? No. I'm an idiot for wasting all that time.

You get lost by shifting one fret?

I go to blues jams all the time.
Any song can be called out in any key.
You have to adjust on the fly. If I had to stop and retune my bass every time, they would never ask me back.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by hdracer

You get lost by shifting one fret?

I go to blues jams all the time.
Any song can be called out in any key.
You have to adjust on the fly. If I had to stop and retune my bass every time, they would never ask me back.

I didn't say that. But when the entire band tunes down, why waste the time transposing every song when I can just tune down and go with it? Easier on the hand, easier on the mind.

[bill reed]

i remember Jimi Hendrix brother saying when he found he (Jimi) could detune his guitar by 1/2 tone and he suddenly realised he had more frets he could play on!!!

[lowphatbass]

All this talk about transposing...I just don't get it. If you've got a sheet of music in front of you and you're asked to perform it in a different key than it's written then you're transposing....otherwise you're just playing a song in a different key than you may be used to. I play in different bands with different singers and play all kinds of songs in all kinds of keys, it's very easy to do on a bass compared to most other instruments.

[khutch]

Originally Posted by lowphatbass

All this talk about transposing...I just don't get it. If you've got a sheet of music in front of you and you're asked to perform it in a different key than it's written then you're transposing....

Yes, that is what they are trying to avoid. You see you can either transpose the written music into a new key, or you can let the instrument do the transposing for you. A lot of the people who argue in favor of downtuning to change keys are accommodating vocalists who want every song they play dropped by the same amount. So they choose to tune down by that amount and let their instruments do the transposing. Transposing instruments are quite common, in fact pretty much all bass guitars are already transposing instruments. On those rare occasions when music for bass guitars is available already written out in standard notation the notes are written an octave above where they actually sound to avoid using a bunch of ledger lines below the bass clef to show them at their true pitch. So bass guitars transpose by an octave normally, which is a trivial transposition but a transposition none the less. If you do a downtuning by half a step, a step, whatever the vocalist wants then you just play the song as you always have and the pitch comes out where the singer wants it. If he leaves and next week your band hires a girl singer who needs everything shifted up you can do that too.

Actually quite a few orchestral instruments do this. I'm not sure why but they do. I played clarinet for a dozen years in public school and college and it was a Bb clarinet. When I played a note written as a C the note that came out was a Bb. Clarinets tuned to A instead of Bb are also quite common and other orchestral instruments also transpose. So you are not any less of a musician if you have a situation where letting your guitar do the transposition for you is the method of choice. But, really, you should still know what notes you are actually playing when someone asks you to play an F#. Back in the day if you asked me to sight read a sheet of music written for an instrument tuned to C I could sit down and play it perfectly for you.

Ken

[lowphatbass]

Originally Posted by khutch

..... If you do a downtuning by half a step, a step, whatever the vocalist wants then you just play the song as you always have and the pitch comes out where the singer wants it. If he leaves and next week your band hires a girl singer who needs everything shifted up you can do that too.....


Ken

This is why it's good to learn the song, it's also one of the reasons 5 that strings are so popular.

IMO, it would seem silly to consider re-tuning one of my basses, doing a set-up(probably a string swap as well) depending on the keys of certain songs.

[Snakeman1066]

being a huge fan of Geezer Butler and Sabbath I have been tuning down a half step for over 20 years..lol

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by lowphatbass

All this talk about transposing...I just don't get it. If you've got a sheet of music in front of you and you're asked to perform it in a different key than it's written then you're transposing....otherwise you're just playing a song in a different key than you may be used to. I play in different bands with different singers and play all kinds of songs in all kinds of keys, it's very easy to do on a bass compared to most other instruments.

Well, yes. But when every song is transposed by an equal amount (like one half-step), why not adjust the instrument to compensate?

[superdick2112]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

Well, yes. But when every song is transposed by an equal amount (like one half-step), why not adjust the instrument to compensate?

I don't see an issue with this at all.
I've never liked the width, string spacing or feel of a five-string neck, yet I often need those lower notes, so drop-tuning was a natural progression for me. There seem to be quite a few folks here who insist on transposing or switching to a fiver, but as long as you are getting the results you are after & enjoying yourself in the process, then I say drop away!
In the end, its the music that matters - not the method used to make it.

[khutch]

Originally Posted by lowphatbass

IMO, it would seem silly to consider re-tuning one of my basses, doing a set-up(probably a string swap as well) depending on the keys of certain songs.

Well, there are in fact performers, and very good ones, who will stop and retune during a concert to optimize the tuning for a particular song. If you have to do that very often it would make more sense to have a guitar tuned that way permanently for the reasons you mention above. But those reasons do not prevent you from retuning multiple times during a concert and getting excellent results. And if you are good enough and famous enough your audience will put up with it. It helps to have a good story to tell while you retune....

But many of the people here who drop tune in order to transpose a song are not doing it for the occasional song, they are doing it for every song they play, now and for the foreseeable future. For them it makes perfect sense and they will only change strings and tweak their setups as often as they were going to do that anyway.

I have to play one song that I would consider retuning for. It starts with a long run of 16th notes on the guitar and by guitar I mean the six string monstrosity tuned about an octave above our glorious instruments! So normally I don't have to play it but if the guitarist doesn't show up for some reason all eyes look at the bass player. It is a run that is devilishly hard to play if you tune in fifths as I do, a little easier in fourths, and pretty easy on two strings a third apart and so that is the strings the guitarists play it on. I haven't had to do it yet but if I did I would retune my A string to F#, a third above the D string, for that song. The guitarist on my team in the rotation is very dependable and so far I have not needed to do that.

Ken

[lowphatbass]

I can understand certain situations where using alternate tunings throught a show makes sense, when I'm playing a 4 string I'll sometimes drop my Eb down to C for a couple songs that strongly feature that note. I also understand the need for taking advantage of open strings/tunings on guitar/banjo/mando, etc.
I guess where I draw the line is deciding to retune my entire bass up or down for the sake of being able to play songs in certain positions. Somebody brought up "Mustang Sally" earlier. Let's say you normally play the song in C. If you have a different singer who does the song in D would you crank your bass up a whole step(or a minor third if the last singer does it in B)just to have the ability to play the song in it's original position on the neck??

[Steve Dallman]

I played in a hard rock band in the 70's where I sang every song. Tuning down that 1/2 step made the difference between my voice making through 4 hours or giving out after a set or two. I also played in a classic country band during that same time. We didn't tune down. No problems with either band. An added benefit was the lack of harmonica players that would try to sit in with us.

My first upright gig was with a folk singer who tuned to Eb and then capoed nearly every song. I left the bass in standard tuning.

[F-Clef-Jef]

I remember a kid way back in high school, thought he was pretty clever using open tunings on his guitar (because he just couldn't play!) We all laughed at him.
"What a hack!" we'd scoff...

Well his open tuning "cheating" actually turned to his advantage through the years, and now he's an awesome slide player. Uses a lot of odd tunings, open tunings and the such. He sounds great, and also very unique! He did eventually learn to play "regular tuned" guitar, but he just had that different tuning perspective that gave him his own unique style.
Breaking the rules, whether through lack of skill, or just exploring new territory is how things are often created. If that kid had heeded our criticism, he'd probably just be another wanker blending into the crowd...
What is correct and proper isn't always what's best!

[phillybass101]

This is nothing new but it is bass friendly. Check out the old Stevie Wonder tune Do I DO! Bass player is tuned to Eb. It really works for this tune. R&B Bass players struggled for years to pull this off in Standard Tuning until in an interview the bassist admits to tuning his bass to Eb. Then the world made sense.

[wilfred]

Yea I always tune halfstep down its great!

[MrCincinnati]

After a couple years of being told tuning my 5 to Bb or A would be greatly beneficial for what I play (gospel ala Fred Hammond, Marvin Sapp etc) and then reading this thread earlier today I went ahead and did it just now(A). A quick truss adjustment and just finished playing through a song that I can drop down to Bb... Oh my.
Not only is the sound exactly what I've been looking for (ok the new wtdi might have something to do with that also) - but the flexibility with my walks is just... Perfect. Highly recommend anyone that plays in Ab Bb Eb F consistently to try it.

[phillybass101]

One of the back stories to this thread is playing with different singers will make you a better bass player. They may all like to sing the same songs but in different keys etc. After a few you'll really know THE SONG and know how to get around your bass in different keys to include using an alternate tuning. I played in one band where I learned the song in the original key and almsot always had to play it live in a different key because of where the singer wanted to sing.

[odarellmc]

Originally Posted by funkafied

Only recently found out that Stevie Wonder's bass player, Nathan Watts, always tunes his basses down half a step. Reckons it makes him sound more fluid and funkier...

Im glad i found this thread i thought i was the only one, lol. Good to see im not the only one. Tuning a half step gives u much more range without changing the feel much. I discovered it playing MJ's rock with you, and preferred the tuning ever since

[BigJohnAZ]

Originally Posted by morgansterne

Rush plays guitars downtuned a whole step to play the stuff from 2112 these days (and put their fingers in the same places so that it comes out a whole step lower, in case you weren't sure!) It's easier for Geddy to sing that way. I love Rush, but honestly when he sings that high he's always sounded bad to me, so I'm glad they're lowering things a bit. When I saw their Clockwork Angels show the opening riff of 2112 sounded a little weird and muddy to me for about thirty seconds and then my brain got over it..

You can tell when Rush is down a step, on 2112 as you say and one other tune (I can't remember offhand), Geddy plays his red Fender Jazz. On the Clockwork Angels tour, these are the only two I've seen.

Some folks on the blogs give Geddy a hard time sometimes for him not reaching the ultrasonic registers anymore, I say, cut him some slack, he'll be 60 this year and singing Rush tunes 3-4 nights a week for over half a year has got to take it's toll eventually lol

I've tried dropping my E to a D, didn't like it. Haven't tried Eb tuning, might give it a try.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by BigJohnAZ

I've tried dropping my E to a D, didn't like it. Haven't tried Eb tuning, might give it a try.

I detune my guitars a lot. It gives them a thicker fuller sound that is great. but detuning an E to a D on a bass always sounded lousy to me. I much prefer my 5ers. On the other hand, detuning to Eb makes a lot of sense especially if you play in a lot of horn keys. That was always my biggest whine back when I played 4 strings. Now I'm wondering why I just didn't tune down a half step instead of standing there whining?