We have enough basis to say "overpriced"?

[FunkyMan]

I am the first to use this term without much basis, and really respect the comments of those who speak of it having a little more "Inside" info..

But i think sometimes we tend to, say "classify" an instrument as overpriced, without really knowing the full process involved for the final product reaches its price and our hands.. I have several statements in my head, but would like to hear various opinions about.

I've read many times complaints that Sadowsky, Warwick, MTD, etc.. are overpriced.. and I'ts good that the customer always has a complaint because the economic situation is not very well, but who understands the manufacturers?

Unless all this is a fraud, and they have the same costs of production as less expensive brands, and then they create a exclusive market to hide the truth (hey i'm just kidding with that)

[s8ramius]

Well think about what an instrument is, it is a tool that only certain people can use. These people will pay the money for the instrument because they want to use it. Also, the process involved in higher end instruments really does take A LOT of time an effort. Not just any woods can be used, trees have to grow for decades in order to make a bass and certain woods can only be found in certain places. People make the instruments, and for finer quality instruments people have to be highly skilled to insure the instrument is produced to the correct specifications. A guitar is like a car, you pay for finer quality and for looks/sound in case of the bass.

[steveksux]

Boutique basses cost more because of exotic woods, fine craftsmen, etc. Their costs are higher. That puts the minimum possible price higher than the "stock" basses.

However, I'll bet you they base their actual price on mojo. There's the old charging what the market will bear going on as well.

Is that overpriced? People pay it, so it is by definition, worth it, and not overpriced.

Randy

[JoZac21]

I hate to sound overly obvious, but if people are paying the asking price, and the producer is staying afloat... then it's not overpriced (see capitalism ).

It seems to me that the statement that an instrument is overpriced is typically the result of rationalization... people can't afford one, so they say it's not worth it. Meanwhile, a lot of people who own high-end instruments say it's worth every penny. It's very easy for me to say BMWs are overpriced since I can't even afford a '98 Ford Taurus... meanwhile there are people riding around in M3s, almost literally sitting in the lap of luxury, not complaining at all, enjoying what they payed so much for.

Ultimately, the whining I hear from electric guitarists and bassists about how $2k + instruments are over priced, when they're hand made, constructed with exotic woods, built with expert craftsmanship/attention to detail, etc. is inane... talk to a professional cellist sometime and try complaining that you can't see dishing out 2 grand on a (quality) instrument...

[Datsgor]

It's only overpriced if you can't afford it. Or, if nobody is willing to buy it.

[Duplo42]

Or talk to a harpist. Friend of mine saved his money for almost 10yrs and bought one with help of his parents and sponzors.

When i studied doublebass, my teacher told me: start to save money, good bass costs from 8000-13000€. His handmade custom bass cost around 20.000€, it was a beauty ofc, but he was a proffesional and he got himself a pro bass.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by JoZac21

I hate to sound overly obvious, but if people are paying the asking price, and the producer is staying afloat... then it's not overpriced (see capitalism ).

It seems to me that the statement that an instrument is overpriced is typically the result of rationalization... people can't afford one, so they say it's not worth it. Meanwhile, a lot of people who own high-end instruments say it's worth every penny. It's very easy for me to say BMWs are overpriced since I can't even afford a '98 Ford Taurus... meanwhile there are people riding around in M3s, almost literally sitting in the lap of luxury, not complaining at all, enjoying what they payed so much for.

Ultimately, the whining I hear from electric guitarists and bassists about how $2k + instruments are over priced, when they're hand made, constructed with exotic woods, built with expert craftsmanship/attention to detail, etc. is inane... talk to a professional cellist sometime and try complaining that you can't see dishing out 2 grand on a (quality) instrument...

Bingo. Some people can afford expensive basses and some can't. As one who owns over 10 expensive basses, I can say I take a great amount of pleasure in playing each one. I can also say that you can buy basses that sound as good as them for under $1,000 (you may have to buy used). I own some of those too.

After you consider the cost of payroll, rent, taxes, insurance, materials and incidentals, you can see that the boutique builders don't enjoy the economy of scale from which the mega-brands benefit. It's not up to you or me to decide whether a particular brand is overpriced. The market will do that for us. When the prices are too high, sales will decrease, forcing either a price reduction or failure of the business.

[Duplo42]

I perfectly fine with my cheap basses - would i like boutique or piece of history? Of course! Do i need it? Nope. But if i were a pro and invest (yes, invest) in instrument that will serve me perfectly on stage and in studio, I would glady cough out 3000$ for such bass.

When my teach brought over his priced doublebass and told me how much he payed, my reaction was: I would never ever give that much money - but he explained: You buy a car for 10k$ and in 10yrs it will have no price (plus all the money you'll spend on gas and repairs), buy a good doublebass and in 100yrs it will be still worth same and a lot more.

Cheap basses are merchandise, not investment. They can serve you well, but dont expect miracles.

I tried Fodera Emperor - honestly, for the money, i still prefer my cheap bass. I agree that, at least IMHO, 8k$ (or whatever the price was, i try to forget :P) the guy payed, is still too much, but i do agree its reliable instrument that will serve him well for years.

[peledog]

Overpriced is a relative term, as others have pointed out.

But for the most part, basses that cost more tend to be better. How much better? I don't know. People love their Honda Accords, but if you have the money, it doesn't necessarily mean you'll go out and get a Jaguar.

That being said, you are also paying for the brand name.

High end basses usually are works of art and are labors of love - and made by hand. Why a Sadowsky costs more than a Tobias - or why a Tobias might cost more than a Sadowsky - who knows?

$1500-$2000 will get you an excellent bass. After that, it's all about craftsmanship, woods, electronics and scarcity - I think that would tend to raise the prices. A good hand made in the USA bass will probably set you back at least $4000. (my guess)

If I could afford a Sadowsky Metro or a USA Spector NS-2, I'd get one (or two or three). Instead of paying something from an assembly line, you're buying an artisan crafted musical instrument. Ask any classical musician - violins especially - those prices can be outrageous. $2 million for a Stradivarius. Yikes. But, he's dead and there's probably only 100 left in the entire world.

Anyway, if I could afford it, I really don't mind paying for exquisite craftsmanship. Luthiers are artists.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by Duplo42

I perfectly fine with my cheap basses - would i like boutique or piece of history? Of course! Do i need it? Nope. But if i were a pro and invest (yes, invest) in instrument that will serve me perfectly on stage and in studio, I would glady cough out 3000$ for such bass.

When my teach brought over his priced doublebass and told me how much he payed, my reaction was: I would never ever give that much money - but he explained: You buy a car for 10k$ and in 10yrs it will have no price (plus all the money you'll spend on gas and repairs), buy a good doublebass and in 100yrs it will be still worth same and a lot more.

Cheap basses are merchandise, not investment. They can serve you well, but dont expect miracles.

I tried Fodera Emperor - honestly, for the money, i still prefer my cheap bass. I agree that, at least IMHO, 8k$ (or whatever the price was, i try to forget :P) the guy payed, is still too much, but i do agree its reliable instrument that will serve him well for years.

The question of "too much" is relative. If you judge a bass solely as "merchandise", then the question of "overpriced" becomes pretty easy. All you have to do for a determination is to compare the merchandise to other similar products with similar features. There you go.

But musical instruments can be much more than merchandise. Well, they can be "vintage". What is that worth? They can be "history" as in owned/payed by Joe Blow. What is that "worth"? And of course they can be art.

So talking about "overpriced", go to a gallery and take a gander at the prices asked for a couple bucks worth of paint smeared on a piece of canvas stretched over some sticks! So is a Ritter or a Jersey Drozd "overpriced"? Well, that depends if the builders "art" and "creativity" speaks to you. I personally am avery huge fan of the "Art" of both those makers. So to me they are well worth it...maybe even a bargain! To someone else they may just be oddly shaped pieces of firewood and clearly "overpriced".

[nukes_da_bass]

Try "building" a bass like I am, meticulously searching ebay for discount parts then farming the labor out to an assembler and you might get new respect for the price issue. I'm collecting new and used parts to finally end up with a Warmoth fretless 5 jazz and so far I have all the parts except control plate, nut, and tuners and tru oil and im in it for about $350.00 so far and that is cheap! So just to do a decent bolt on instrument with quality woods and parts should still get me close to if not over $1000.00 once labor is factored in.
My "bass assembly" hobby is not a registered business- so I have no overhead.
Now imagine I have a shop- I either pay rent or mortgage on it, I have tools like a CNC machine which cost thousands, and I either have depreciation or a business loan on them...maybe if I am high end enough I have a shed which is used to season tonewood blanks for long periods of time...
I currently own three businesses none of which have anything to do with music or the music business, and my overhead is damn low because I run them out of my home office, Iphone, and computer and STILL my overhead for the three combined businesses is somewhere near a combined $100,000.00 per year conservatively speaking.
Consider one of Ken Smith's high end basses- made of the best in woods and parts, lots of hand crafted work, he owns or rents lots of workspace in Perkasie PA, advertising, the cost of getting to NAMM every year...R&D...the list goes on.
Trust me when I tell you the return financially from business ownership is not what you might think it is! we small business owners usually eat, and fairly well at that- but profit? sometimes yes, sometimes not so much.
If I paid full retail for the parts I have collected for a high quality bolt on jazz bass id be up to...close to $800.00 for a really nice body, neck, pickups, and bridge so far with lots of parts to go and none of the assembly or finish labor performed. Makes $1500.00 for a "boutique" jazz look pretty thin in the profit dept ehh?
I'm just sayin!

[hrodbert696]

As others have said, there's no objective criterion of value -- value is what the market will bear. That means that a fair price is what the consumer feels is a fair price and is willing to pay. What the builder spent to make it is irrelevant from the consumer perspective, though obviously the builder needs to find a price point that covers his expenses and leaves a profit.

So if I buy a $500 bass and a $5000 bass and I can't hear any meaningful difference between the two, I would say as a consumer that the $5000 is overpriced. (or a $1200 bass and a $2000 if you want to be more realistic and narrow the margin).

On the other hand, since these companies stay afloat, there's obviously a market for their products that doesn't find them overpriced. Some people are willing to invest the extra money for subtle differences in tone, feel, and look. There's also such a thing as conspicuous consumption -- buying the $10,000 instrument just because you can, and so that people know that you can -- though few would admit to it outright.

[GianGian]

I say that something is overpriced because I compare it to its similar models and brands. When I can sound almost the same, and play almost the same, with something thats costs half of the price, then I can say that the expensive one is overpriced.
And if people choose to produce in expensive places, like the USA, it is their problem, and they have poor business skills.
I will never buy an overpriced instrument made in a developed country just because I can. I will buy if I think that it has something to offer that the is worth the difference in the price when compared to a chinese model.
Plus, I can get a chinese instrument, upgrade it, make it the way I want it to be, and still spend less than if I had bought an expensive stock thing.

[PDGood]

Originally Posted by bassbenj

The question of "too much" is relative. If you judge a bass solely as "merchandise", then the question of "overpriced" becomes pretty easy. All you have to do for a determination is to compare the merchandise to other similar products with similar features. There you go.

But musical instruments can be much more than merchandise. Well, they can be "vintage". What is that worth? They can be "history" as in owned/payed by Joe Blow. What is that "worth"? And of course they can be art.

+1

But as far as this whole discussion goes you have to remember that words are just for communication, so over analysis is futile. When someone says an instrument is overpriced it's understood that it means compared to the cost of a similar instrument. And of course that's subjective so people are really just saying in my opinion it's not a good deal.
You can argue that you think it is a good deal based on what went into the instrument, but that's subjective as well. There are a lot of factors that go into choosing the market price of an instrument and each seller makes his decision. But it's also the right of each buyer to say....mmmm...just doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

[Chasarms]

Originally Posted by GianGian

I say that something is overpriced because I compare it to its similar models and brands. When I can sound almost the same, and play almost the same, with something thats costs half of the price, then I can say that the expensive one is overpriced. . .

I get this, but unfortunately for players, the law of diminishing returns plays a HUGE role in making instruments. The devil, and thus the expense, is in the details. It takes a lot of time and effort to get those basses the way they want them. In your opinion, paying much less for the "almost the same" instrument makes the most sense. I understand that. Others are willing to pay more for the details.

I have owned literally dozens of basses, but my experiences with the REALLY expensive instruments is limited to Sadowsky, Roscoe and Dingwall. The amount of effort put into making these as perfect as possible is obvious. I am confident in saying that you simply will not find a bass with the fit and dressing of a Sadowsky or Dingwall for significantly less money. They are set apart. Of course, how you value that is completely up to you.

How someone spends their money is as personal as it gets. Further, I am in no position to be critical of a person's perception of value. My only beef with the folks who make the "over priced" claims about certain basses is that they never qualify the statement, and further, it is nearly always stated in a negative light, implying that the pricing is done for excessive profit taking or driven by unreasonable fervor on the part of the bass buying community. When I see statements about Sheldon Dingwall or especially Roger Sadowsky "laughing all the way to bank," I think it is ridiculous. People who make such claims are simply ignorant to reality of what those guys are trying to do.

[KingRazor]

I think this comes from the fact that one can almost always find something of similar (in one's own opinion) quality for a lower price.

Take for example how cheaply you can build your own computer. I built one for $900 that at the time could have easily cost me $1500 or more if I had bought a computer at retail price.

People see this and think that everything must be overpriced.

But if you just added up the cost of the materials needed to build a bass and the tools required that alone would be more expensive than a lot of import basses.

[GianGian]

Originally Posted by Chasarms

I get this, but unfortunately for players, the law of diminishing returns plays a HUGE role in making instruments. The devil, and thus the expense, is in the details. It takes a lot of time and effort to get those basses the way they want them. In your opinion, paying much less for the "almost the same" instrument makes the most sense. I understand that. Others are willing to pay more for the details.

I have owned literally dozens of basses, but my experiences with the REALLY expensive instruments is limited to Sadowsky, Roscoe and Dingwall. The amount of effort put into making these as perfect as possible is obvious. I am confident in saying that you simply will not find a bass with the fit and dressing of a Sadowsky or Dingwall for significantly less money. They are set apart. Of course, how you value that is completely up to you.

How someone spends their money is as personal as it gets. Further, I am in no position to be critical of a person's perception of value. My only beef with the folks who make the "over priced" claims about certain basses is that they never qualify the statement, and further, it is nearly always stated in a negative light, implying that the pricing is done for excessive profit taking or driven by unreasonable fervor on the part of the bass buying community. When I see statements about Sheldon Dingwall or especially Roger Sadowsky "laughing all the way to bank," I think it is ridiculous. People who make such claims are simply ignorant to reality of what those guys are trying to do.

Yeah I agree with you. If people want to get pretty expensive basses, sure, why not? I just won't do it.
I mean, there is a difference for sure, you won't find a chinese bass as clean looking and perfectly made, but it costs way too much in my opinion. People who can pay that much for that kind of detail can do it, and be happy about it. I have better ways to spend my money, especially because I have little.
I don't think that people say overpriced meaning that the companies are ripping us off. At least not more than everybody else.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by FunkyMan

Unless all this is a fraud, and they have the same costs of production as less expensive brands, and then they create a exclusive market to hide the truth (hey i'm just kidding with that)

An item is worth what you can sell it for.

They sell 'em, so they must not be overpriced. Q.E.D.

And even though I want to gag at the very thought, the same would be true for Monster Cables. The phrasing I would use to describe them is "they are overpriced FOR ME, and a poor value."

Something can be a poor value and still sell well.

[plangentmusic]

Personally I don't care if an instrument is painstakingly hand made with exotic woods and ivory inlays from rare Tibetan elephants on a strictly organic diet. I just care how it plays and sounds. And I want it to look nice too. And I've found I can find that well within the 2K range and below.

It's not like basses that are 4, 5, or 6K or more sound or play any better IMO. Hence, the term "overpriced."

But hey, if you want gold and diamond trim on your bass and can afford it and it makes you happy, who's to say you shouldn't?

[M.R. Ogle]

Good heavens....

If you're an old fart like me, these are really non-issues. Back when I started playing in 1972, you simply did not have the super-wide price range of generally well-made instruments.

Young musicians starting out today (or musicians on a budget) are VERY lucky to have Squiers, SX, Ibbys and a host of other very playable instruments available at really inexpensive prices. There are more good basses at ALL price levels than ever before.

However, these days everybody with an internet connection can drool over all the boutiques and exotics and lament that they can't afford them. Well, quit bitching.... these ARE the good ol' days for bass players, and you do not NEED a Sado or a Dingnwall to be able to fully enjoy playing. You probably download pictures of Lamborghinis and Bugatti's, too... and you don't NEED one of those either.

Also, I've visited several "boutique" builder's shops, and three of them (who shall remain nameless) were actually quite modest shops in the basement or garage of their homes. One was in a rented space, one was below his apartment. Bless them for their tenacity in sticking with the "labor of love" business, but I guarantee you there are months when they sign more checks on the front than the back.

I really do not think there are very many "rich" boutique builders. I'd bet they do not own Ferraris either.