What is the ken smith sound?

osmarokuma · #1 08-19-2011, 02:01 PM

So I am pretty sure that this has been discussed already but I really couldn't find it anywhere (yes I used the search).

I am about to buy a new bass and I have to chose between an MTD and Ken Smith. I have played a ken smith before but couldn't identify that "ken smith sound" which is supposed to be signature about the bass. I am pretty familiar with the MTD though.

The reason I am considering the Ken smith is because the one that is available is a BT elite 6 string.

I play 6 strings, funk, r&b, soul, jazz, latin. I am also trying to get into gospel.

Not sure if anyone can clarify this for me...or maybe give me an advice on which bass to get (MTD 635 or Ken Smith BT elite).

Thanks

basswave · #2 08-19-2011, 02:04 PM

As an ex owner of both...I think there is a more of woody midrange tone that is with the Ken Smith.

However I'm no expert tin this area and I'm sure a lot of P&W players could tell you better.

KJung · #3 08-19-2011, 02:10 PM

If you look at a Ken Smith bass (the vast majority anyway) you will see that the pickups are in a bit of an unusual (read, non J) position. Both the bridge and neck pickup are quite a bit closer to the bridge than many other basses.

As a result, as posted above, there is always a very articulate, burpy, low mid sort of voicing to the Smiths when you have both pickups in the mix.

The other defining tone of the Smith (IMO and IME) is a unique 'ping' of the treble response... almost like someone hitting a 'triangle' at the note attack when digging in or slapping.

Almost the opposite of the very wide, very deep, and in many cases, a bit scooped tone of many MTD spec's.

A great example of the (IMO)classic Ken Smith tone can be heard on the Bruce Hornsby 'Here Come the Noise Makers' live double CD. Lots of solo spots for the wonderful bassist (JD Colier I believe), and you can hear that 'burp and ping' come screaming through.

Another way I like to describe it is 'a lot of space between the notes'... very sharp attack when you dig in.

Hard to describe.

osmarokuma · #4 08-19-2011, 02:14 PM

I sort of get that from Hadrien Feraud but on his recordings he uses a pedal board in most of the tunes so I couldn't really figure out the tone of the bass itself.

I guess when it comes to this purchase I am a bit concerned about the low end (B string). From what people tell me Ken smith might not have a very deep low end? haven't heard a smith in that context... I will check out that album though, thanks.

Dr. Cheese · #5 08-19-2011, 02:16 PM

To my ears, a Ken Smith sounds not unlike a Stingray but smoother and more refined (this is not a dig at Stingrays.)

pjmuck · #6 08-19-2011, 02:30 PM

Yes, I agree Smiths definitely have a burpy midrangy tone, and the description of the bell-like attack is spot on. I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with the brass nut (some of my other brass nut basses have a similar effect on the tone). That's not to say they're ultra bright sounding basses, however, in fact I wish mine had a bit more top end brightness and a midtone EQ cut/boost option (I own a CR4, which only has a bass/treble cut/boost and PUP blend). I find mine can easily get a bit muddy/blurry sounding if the EQ's not adjusted properly (these basses almost always need a fresh new set of steel strings on them). All in all, I do love mine, it's easily the most comfortable bass and best built bass I've ever played, but it's tones don't work for everything.

osmarokuma · #7 08-19-2011, 02:35 PM

How would you say flat wounds would respond to the ken smith? seeing as some people say its a bit bright.

Im pretty mich 50-50 between flats and rounds

KJung · #8 08-19-2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjmuck

Yes, I agree Smiths definitely have a burpy midrangy tone, and the description of the bell-like attack is spot on. I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with the brass nut (some of my other brass nut basses have a similar effect on the tone). That's not to say they're ultra bright sounding basses, however, in fact I wish mine had a bit more top end brightness and a midtone EQ cut/boost option (I own a CR4, which only has a bass/treble cut/boost and PUP blend). I find mine can easily get a bit muddy/blurry sounding if the EQ's not adjusted properly (these basses almost always need a fresh new set of steel strings on them). All in all, I do love mine, it's easily the most comfortable bass and best built bass I've ever played, but it's tones don't work for everything.

+1 My feeling about what you describe is as follows (from my experience with my Smith back in the day:

Brightness.... I define that as a lot of upper mid content. The Smith has a beautiful, pinging, open, crystal clear upper treble response, but that sits way above the rest of the mid voicing of the bass. It is a bit like some speaker cabs (Epifani UL's come to mind) where there is a big hole in the upper mids between where the driver ends and the tweeter starts. This results in a beautiful, crystal clear upper treble response. However, that can get eaten up in a mix by cymbals, etc., and you end up having a sound that can be a bit 'dark', even though that 6K+ is screaming out of the instrument.

Strings going dead... same issue. I've found when a string starts to die, it is that upper treble that goes first. If that is the frequency range that the bass is emphasizing in its upper range, it will give you the impression that it is eating strings like crazy. I had the same issue with my Wenge MTD, which has that similar '8K sizzle' but with a bit of a hole in the upper mid 'brightness' area that really gives you the ability to have a bright, grindy tone, even when you strings are a bit old (the single coil J bass thing).

IMO!

Caca de Kick · #9 08-19-2011, 02:40 PM

Ex owner of a BSR5WG. Yup a rather woody, burpy-midrange tone. I would say on the warmer side. One of the best feeling necks ever.

No it did not seem "bright" compared to the basses in my profile. It was too polite is why I don't have it anymore, I required a gritty tone.

KJung · #10 08-19-2011, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caca de Kick

Ex owner of a BSR5WG. Yup a rather woody, burpy-midrange tone. I would say on the warmer side. One of the best feeling necks ever.

No it did not seem "bright" compared to the basses in my profile. It was too polite is why I don't have it anymore, I required a gritty tone.

That is another way to describe what I am talking about 'polite' (i.e., clean and crisp up top) versus 'gritty' (like a J with singles).

A bass that combines a bit of the best of both worlds (the burpy, meaty mid presence of the Ken Smith due to similar pickup placement) but a bit more grunt and rawness and grit up top is the Sadowsky Modern model. The Nordstrand Big Single pickup option in that bass is a real nice merging of 'modern soapbar' and a bit more vintage grunt IMO.

+1 on the Smith neck... uber flat and thin.

IotaNet · #11 08-19-2011, 03:07 PM

Here's some "Ken Smith" tone for you ...

Thurman "Peanut" Woods Bass Shout Groove - YouTube

http://youtu.be/xhvyQi9pfSg

Kwesi · #12 08-19-2011, 04:00 PM

To the OP: To me, this is the perfect example of the smith sound.

Let The Praise Begin - Fred Hammond - YouTube

77PBass · #13 08-19-2011, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjmuck

I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with the brass nut (some of my other brass nut basses have a similar effect on the tone).

Hmmm.. I wonder how much effect the nut has on tone when fretting a note. Then again, my 'Wick Dolphin Pro I has plenty of ping and it has a brass nut.....

Jazzdogg · #14 08-19-2011, 04:30 PM

Here's a clip of Ed Friedland playing his Smith 6-string:

Messin' With The Smith - YouTube

osmarokuma · #15 08-19-2011, 04:39 PM

I am a bit afraid about the ken smith because even though the one I played sounded great I am afraid that the one I buy will not sound so good (to me). MTD's I know are pretty versatile but I haven't played around with the Smith eq.

77PBass · #16 08-19-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

Here's a clip of Ed Friedland playing his Smith 6-string:

Messin' With The Smith - YouTube

Gotta love Ed.!

pjmuck · #17 08-19-2011, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

+1 My feeling about what you describe is as follows (from my experience with my Smith back in the day:

Brightness.... I define that as a lot of upper mid content. The Smith has a beautiful, pinging, open, crystal clear upper treble response, but that sits way above the rest of the mid voicing of the bass. It is a bit like some speaker cabs (Epifani UL's come to mind) where there is a big hole in the upper mids between where the driver ends and the tweeter starts. This results in a beautiful, crystal clear upper treble response. However, that can get eaten up in a mix by cymbals, etc., and you end up having a sound that can be a bit 'dark', even though that 6K+ is screaming out of the instrument.

Strings going dead... same issue. I've found when a string starts to die, it is that upper treble that goes first. If that is the frequency range that the bass is emphasizing in its upper range, it will give you the impression that it is eating strings like crazy. I had the same issue with my Wenge MTD, which has that similar '8K sizzle' but with a bit of a hole in the upper mid 'brightness' area that really gives you the ability to have a bright, grindy tone, even when you strings are a bit old (the single coil J bass thing).

IMO!

Your explanations make a lot of sense. Thanks. I've not experimented much with different strings on this bass, but I'm wondering if there are certain strings that will keep or reclaim those lost frequencies longer. I've only used Smith's brand strings so far, but I generally like Elixirs on my other basses. Maybe I'll give them a try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 77PBass

Hmmm.. I wonder how much effect the nut has on tone when fretting a note. Then again, my 'Wick Dolphin Pro I has plenty of ping and it has a brass nut.....

I should have clarified. I definitely hear it most when slapping. Walking, not so much, though pushing the highs to the max. can bring it out.

osmarokuma · #18 08-19-2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

Here's a clip of Ed Friedland playing his Smith 6-string:

Messin' With The Smith - YouTube

Wow yeah, this is a very useful video, thanks.. Haven't heard a ken smith in a jazz setting.

Jazzdogg · #19 08-19-2011, 07:58 PM

If you have clips that capture "The Smith Sound," or "The MTD Sound," please post them. Especially fretless!

SLaPiNFuNK · #20 08-19-2011, 08:09 PM

Here is me describing my BSR6EG Fretless: Has some examples of different EQ settings (playing the thing), and then some other little examples:

Ken Smith BSR6EG Fretless Bass Electronics Overview Sound Samples - YouTube

Some more fretless bits:

Cello Suite in G: Bach Suite for Cello No. 1 in G Major Prelude Frettless Bass - YouTube

REZA: Jaco Pastorius - REZA frettless bass groove - YouTube

Continuum: Jaco Pastorius - Continuum (Played by Jason Mendelson) - YouTube

Kinda like Chicken: Bass Chicken - YouTube

I have vid's of my Fretted Smiths on my channel as well...

(all clips plugged directly into basic Sound In on the computer... no pre-amps / no effects / no EQ... ALL SMITH!)