Why a fret on zero?

[uOpt]

Using a zero fret it is much easier to get the height at zero correct. Instead of having to properly cut a nut you just level all the frets and you are done.

The problem is that there is wear on that fret. And you still need something to keep the strings in place so now you need a nut-like thing, too, and now you have to do more work.

I always wondered whether a stainless steel zero fret would be the best of all worlds.

[Geroi Asfalta]

I was thinking about how a 0 fret would sound better. I always thought the open strings sounded a little...weird. I put flats on my P, all the notes were bright and full except the open strings, they sound rubbery. Either a 0 fret or a steel nut would fix that I think...

[edt844]

Is Zeroglide the only after market zero fret maker?

Ed T.

[LWagner]

I've been told it makes open stings sound the same as a fretted note.?.?.?

[Double E]

Originally Posted by deeptubes

If the note is fretted, what difference does it make whether it's your fingers or a capo fretting them? If you have a 0 fret, E needs to be fretted. I don't see the point. Isn't a nut essentially a 0 fret with a capo? Of course A sounds fuller when fretted on E. Same as E played on a B. It's a thicker string. I fail to see the point. It just seems like it's extra unnecessary fretting. But, I've never played a 0 fret. They may have nuances that go unappreciated until playing one myself.

The E does not have to be fretted with a 0 fret...you are missing the point. The strings are passed tightly over the 0 fret, the same as they do over a traditional nut. The nut behind the fret just keeps the spacing even.

[FrednBass]

People add the 0-fret because is the best for metal.

[Musiclogic]

Originally Posted by jbossolo

"Imagine what would happen industry-wide if a major player introduced a Zero Fret Option"

Birdsong does! I have them on mine, and they sound like angels!

Obviously not paying much attention to MTD? Pretty major player, and uses zero frets, along with many custom shops. Zero frets are not uncommon and are not generally preferred by most players.

There have been many misconceptions in this thread. It's not my job to try to correct myths started by musicians, so I'll just say this.

Zero frets force the need for a sloped action on a Bass. Meaning that the action up the neck will increase in height....Always

A nut allows for a more consistent action height across the complete fretboard instead of becomming gradually higher.

Everything is in the set up of the instrument. Today most players set up their own instruments and thus become adapted to what they can get. Some better than others, most not that great.

Repairmen these days who can do a proper set up for very low action are few and far between. Understanding the full scope of a design helps to understand the reason for popularity or not of an option.

[giacomini]

My fretless has zero frets...

Oh, wait!

[FrednBass]

Originally Posted by giacomini

My fretless has zero frets...

Oh, wait!

Niiiiice

[mjac28]

I love the zero fret on my Hofner I know it sounds fantastic.

[THORRR]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

Obviously not paying much attention to MTD? Pretty major player, and uses zero frets, along with many custom shops. Zero frets are not uncommon and are not generally preferred by most players.

There have been many misconceptions in this thread. It's not my job to try to correct myths started by musicians, so I'll just say this.

Zero frets force the need for a sloped action on a Bass. Meaning that the action up the neck will increase in height....Always

A nut allows for a more consistent action height across the complete fretboard instead of becomming gradually higher.

Everything is in the set up of the instrument. Today most players set up their own instruments and thus become adapted to what they can get. Some better than others, most not that great.

Repairmen these days who can do a proper set up for very low action are few and far between. Understanding the full scope of a design helps to understand the reason for popularity or not of an option.

Talk about Misconceptions and Myths! LOL

What gave you the idea that zero frets are "not generally preferred by most players" ??? I'll bet most players have never even played a zero fret instrument. That's ludicrous -

And "Zero frets force the need for a sloped action on a Bass. Meaning that the action up the neck will increase in height....Always" HA!
ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! A zero fret does the same job as a nut when it comes to string height, except it does it better and more evenly unless you've got a super luthier who has filed the nut to fret height perfectly. And there are some super luthiers out there who can do this very well.
A nut right behind the zero fret handles the string spacing.
NONE of this is cause for a sloped higher action board.

I took your comments seriously but I'm really hoping you were only kidding. These are erroneous beliefs and could confuse a newbie.

[Ric5]

I have an acoustic guitar with a zero fret. It is simply the best playing guitar I have ever played. On a guitar with a high nut when you play chords with open and fretted strings together the fretted strings go sharp. With a zero fret this does not happen. With a bass a zero fret does not make as much difference since us bass players don't play 6 note chords. But what a zero fret bass will give you lower action especially on the first 5 frets.

[RobJ]

Both my Status basses and Hofner have a zero fret and play and sound fine with very low action (the Hofner is a little different so I'm referring to my Status basses). The open strings do sound a bit closer to their fretted counterparts to my ears vs a non zero fret bass.

[Musiclogic]

Oh I am sorry for trampling on your ignorance. If the action with a Zero fret is flat the only place the string will vibrate is along the relief as the zero fret is the same height as the rest of the frets. Thus the action must be ever increasing to make a zero fret neck playable. The bridge saddle and the zero fret are the same height, the string frets out on every fret outside of the relief area. I am sorry you are not ept enough to know this.

Why do I say most players do not prefer them?

30 years in business, with readilly available Zero fret instruments since well before I started, GUESS WHAT.... 99% of my business is NOT Zero fret work. 98% of the basses sold are NOT Zero fret instruments.

I apologize for you inability to understand simple economics. If Zero frets were the preferred playing structure in this business, Guess what.....every major company would be building them, and every builder/manufacturer that does Zero frets would be back ordered for decades.

Guess what...Even Mike Tobias is only 18 months back ordered.

Your preference is not the market, and you belief that your preference is the preference of the majority, shows it's ignorance based in arrogance looking at the size of the thread. This thread would be 20 times it's # of posts if your assumption was true. The market is the dictator of the reality about Zero frets, much like Fanned fret, it's not for everyone.

Also it doesn't take a super luthier to get ultra low action with a nut as opposed to a zero fret, just a competant one. Might be a good idea to introduce yourself to one.

[JTE]

A regular nut serves two functions- string spacing and setting the string height at the bass end of the neck. A zero fret splits this into two parts. The nut now only sets spacing, and the the zero fret sets the action at the low end of the neck. Properly set up, it's just like a correctly cut nut.

They're not common primarily I think because Gibson and Martin didn't use them. So, other American guitar companies (Gretsch being a notable exception) didn't either. Add in that most of the instruments that DID use a zero fret were inexpensive imports, the idea of a zero fret has a stigma that's really undeserved.

deeptubes- the zero fret is not a fret you finger. It's right up by the nut and the open strings rest on it. It is similar to if you DID tune down a half-step and capoed the first fret, except now your scale length is shorter because your scale is effectively the distance from the 1st fret to the bridge and that first fret is now your "open" string.

That's why the assertion that a zero fret causes "sloped action" is utterly false. A properly set up instrument with a zero fret is set up like a properly cut nut. The detail is getting that zero fret's height correct. If it's set correctly though, it's correct. And there's simply no reason it can not be set correctly.

John

[emblymouse]

I just got a bass with a zero fret the other day.
The open strings do sound like the fretted notes.

[Musiclogic]

Originally Posted by Ric5

I have an acoustic guitar with a zero fret. It is simply the best playing guitar I have ever played. On a guitar with a high nut when you play chords with open and fretted strings together the fretted strings go sharp. With a zero fret this does not happen. With a bass a zero fret does not make as much difference since us bass players don't play 6 note chords. But what a zero fret bass will give you lower action especially on the first 5 frets.

A zero fret will give you lower action on the first 5 if your luthier or repairman does not know how to set up an instrument. It has nothing to do with the zero fret and everything to do with the competancy of the set up person.

[d180fuzz]

It's "competency"...

Also, it's "readily" (just one "l"), "backordered" (one word), and "its" (uhhh...go figure it out).

Also, what's an "ept"? Early pregnancy test?




.....spelling and grammar DO matter...

[Abner]

I wonder if you can clarify some points here:

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

Zero frets force the need for a sloped action on a Bass. Meaning that the action up the neck will increase in height....Always

I'm not sure this is a bad thing, but I gather you are saying a zero-fret is not the right height, and the nut slots should be cut higher than fret height?

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

A nut allows for a more consistent action height across the complete fretboard instead of becomming gradually higher.

So the nut slots keep the strings about as high as the bridge saddles? That would make playing the first fret awful sharp.


Try and follow along, and tell me were I went wrong:

If I play the first fret, the nut or the zero fret is taken out of the equation. What is the string height like at the second fret when I play the first?

Take that back a step and it becomes easy to see how a zero fret would be a good string height for an open string.

I don't explain myself well at times. Try another take: what is the ideal height for nut slots?

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

Also it doesn't take a super luthier to get ultra low action with a nut as opposed to a zero fret, just a competant one.

I would imagine the ideal height for nut slots would then be about the same height as a fret. So tell me, what is the difference between the ideal nut and a zero fret?


And as an aside, it's been discussed here before: the zero fret may have a bit of a stigma as being a feature on "cheap" guitars and basses. Truth is, it's a great idea, and simplifies setups. I think it's most unfortunate that more manufacturers do not use it, as they tend not to fine tune the nut and err on the side of caution (that's the high side). And it seems like anybody who's ever played a bass or guitar with one (at least in this thread) would agree with that.

-Alex

[Bruce Johnson]

MusicLogic;

I agree with most of what you are saying, except for one thing. Many (most?) of us Luthiers who use zero frets in our basses, use a taller size fretwire for the zero fret. Then we file it down to a height that gives us the correct action. On my basses, I cut the zero fret to 0.010" higher than the plane of the other frets. Your argument about the sloped action only applies if the builder puts in the same size fret and levels it with the others. Most of us don't do that. That's usually only done by low-priced manufacturers to save money.

The economics are funny because zero frets are often used on cheap instruments as a shortcut, to avoid the labor of hand-cutting the nut slots. But on high-end instruments, doing a zero fret installation right is actually more labor than doing a standard nut right. Whether you use a zero fret on a bass depends on different things. On my standard basses, the pros outweigh the cons, so I use them. On other types of basses, I wouldn't.

The biggest downside to them is wear. If the bass uses roundwounds that are changed constantly, a zero fret will wear out much quicker than a correctly-fitted nut. My basses use flatwounds that typically stay on for 10 years, so the wear isn't an issue.