Why a fret on zero?

[Abner]

Also, I'm not seeing how a zero-fret could be subject to more wear than nut slots?

Anybody?

-Alex

[Bruce Johnson]

Abner;

To clarify:

On a correctly cut nut, the bottoms of the slots should end up slightly higher than the plane of the tops of the frets. Most of us cut them to 0.005" to 0.015" higher, depending on the bass and the setup desired. The quick check is to press the string down at the 3rd fret. The string should just barely clear the 1st fret, indicating that the nut slots are slightly higher than the frets. If the slots are cut too low, then you'll get the excessively sloped action that MusicLogic was referring to. You'd have to add more relief and higher action overall for the same "buzz threshold". If the nut is cut correctly, you can set it up with lower relief and lower action. The action will always slope somewhat (that is, gradually increase as you go up the neck), but you don't want too much.

A zero fret is set up the same way. It's trimmed to a height slightly higher than the other frets. If it's cut to the same height as the others, then the setup of the bass will be limited.

[Bruce Johnson]

Originally Posted by Abner

Also, I'm not seeing how a zero-fret could be subject to more wear than nut slots?

Anybody?

-Alex

The slot in the nut has more surface area in contact with the string. The nut is wider than a fret, and the slot is cut with a half-round file that's close to the diameter of the string. It's a half-round groove supporting a larger area on the underside of the string.

The zero fret is crowned, so it's rounded in an axis perpendicular to the string. It's practically a point-to-point contact between the two. A stainless roundwound getting tuned and untuned is like a saw blade on the fret. It will cut a groove because of the high point loading. A smooth flatwound that hardly ever gets tuned isn't an issue.

[Abner]

I appreciate your time and patience, but I'm still not seeing it.

For example: I suddenly find myself needing to play a tune in F#, with many notes up the neck, but also needs the B. So I put a capo on the second fret. The bass plays just fine, and for all intents and purposes, the second fret has now become the zero fret. It is not any higher than any other fret. And neither should it be.

Why does this work, but a zero-fret should be higher?


-Alex

[Abner]

Originally Posted by Bruce Johnson

The slot in the nut has more surface area in contact with the string. The nut is wider than a fret, and the slot is cut with a half-round file that's close to the diameter of the string. It's a half-round groove supporting a larger area on the underside of the string.

The zero fret is crowned, so it's rounded in an axis perpendicular to the string. It's practically a point-to-point contact between the two. A stainless roundwound getting tuned and untuned is like a saw blade on the fret. It will cut a groove because of the high point loading. A smooth flatwound that hardly ever gets tuned isn't an issue.

I'm willing to concede somewhat on this point. That it may be plausible. But a nut is usually plastic, and a fret is metal. I'm still thinking that wear on a zero-fret is negligible (or comparable, at least) compared to a typical nut.

-Alex

[Jazz Ad]

Fighting over a zero fret, now I've seen it all.
Impact on tone is null. Impact on setup only happens for open strings.
There are different ways to do things and one does'nt have to be better than the other.

As for Abner's point, zero frets get eaten much quicker than nuts, which don't seem to age at all. It's easy to see on acoustic guitars where you have to replace the zero fret every few years.

[Bruce Johnson]

Originally Posted by Abner

I appreciate your time and patience, but I'm still not seeing it.

For example: I suddenly find myself needing to play a tune in F#, with many notes up the neck, but also needs the B. So I put a capo on the second fret. The bass plays just fine, and for all intents and purposes, the second fret has now become the zero fret. It is not any higher than any other fret. And neither should it be.

Why does this work, but a zero-fret should be higher?


-Alex

You bring up a good point, but the reason why the capo works is because it applies some pressure back behind the second fret. Because of this pressure, the string actually gets raised up a bit as it curves over the second fret, giving it a little extra clearance as it goes over the third. Likewise, any time you press down the string behind any fret, you slightly increase the clearance of the string over the next fret.

If you're not picturing how this happens, try this: press the string down very gently right over the 3rd fret, so you are making the string just barely contact the fret. Now look at the clearance between the string and the 4th fret. There should be some clearance, due to the relief and the action. Now do a normal fretting, pressing down behind the 3rd fret. Watch how that clearance at the 4th increases as you press down harder and move closer to the the 3rd.

To answer your question, the zero fret doesn't have as much downward pressure and break angle over it (in most installations, anyway) as the other frets would get during normal fingering, or from putting a capo behind them. That's why it needs a little extra height. Theoretically, it could be level with the other frets, but only if the bass were being played with a feather-light touch. In practice, you've got to raise the zero fret (or the nut slots) slightly above the frets to get an action setup that players like.

[Abner]

Fighting?

Sir, I will have you know this a civilized discussion.

Hmph!

[Jazz Ad]

You should check a few pages earlier.

[Abner]

Originally Posted by Bruce Johnson

You bring up a good point, but the reason why the capo works is because it applies some pressure back behind the second fret. Because of this pressure, the string actually gets raised up a bit as it curves over the second fret, giving it a little extra clearance as it goes over the third. Likewise, any time you press down the string behind any fret, you slightly increase the clearance of the string over the next fret.

If you're not picturing how this happens, try this: press the string down very gently right over the 3rd fret, so you are making the string just barely contact the fret. Now look at the clearance between the string and the 4th fret. There should be some clearance, due to the relief and the action. Now do a normal fretting, pressing down behind the 3rd fret. Watch how that clearance at the 4th increases as you press down harder and move closer to the the 3rd.

To answer your question, the zero fret doesn't have as much downward pressure and break angle over it (in most installations, anyway) as the other frets would get during normal fingering, or from putting a capo behind them. That's why it needs a little extra height. Theoretically, it could be level with the other frets, but only if the bass were being played with a feather-light touch. In practice, you've got to raise the zero fret (or the nut slots) slightly above the frets to get an action setup that players like.

You're still not convincing me. First off, I know .005" is a very small amount. It's actually so small I don't know that it's worth the effort. I can probably move my neck back and forth more than that when I get a little excited.

Second, I normally fret very close to or even on the fret (I have a fretless or two). And even if I didn't, I don't think I could make the string soar over the fret any appreciable amount. I think I would need very high frets for that.

Is it possible to make measurements of this phenomenon? I'd be interested to see some.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if I can fret any note on the neck and have it work, then the logical extension is for a zero fret to be exactly the same as any other fret.

But then maybe I'm just stubborn.

-Alex

[philtoler]

The zero fret can be set at any height relative to frets 1 onwards. For example the zero fret on my Hofner CT violin bass is set much higher than the others - much too high for me so I had to carefully file notches in it (much like you would do with the nut) to reduce string height at fret 1 to a level that felt comfortable for me. Plays beautifully now.

[Bruce Johnson]

Yeah, there's no fight needed. As a builder who uses zero frets on my basses, I'm just trying to explain what their purpose is and why some of us use them. It's not a right-or-wrong thing. They work for some applications and not for others.

In my own case, I did some back-to-back experiments during the early days of the development of my Scroll Bass line, swapping a zero fret and a conventional nut back and forth on the same test instrument. I found that the zero fret did make a noticeable difference in the tone, particularly in making the open notes sound the same as the fretted notes. As I mentioned before, my basses are built specifically for use with flatwounds, and the flatwounds seem to be more sensitive to this than roundwounds. I'm not sure exactly why. It has something to do with the point-loading that they get when resting on top of a crowned fret. The flatwounds seem to ring more clearly when resting on a fret, than they do when resting in the groove of a nut. I think it's more to do with the geometry of the contact than the material. But that's why I go to the extra effort of using the zero fret.

On my fretless basses I use a "zero block", which is a variant on the zero fret. It's a crosswise block of ebony at the end of the fingerboard, which is set to 0.005" to 0.010" above the surface of the fingerboard. The purpose is the same; to get the contact geometry and material the same, so the the open notes sound the same as the fingered notes. Is this essential? No, of course not. It's one of many small details I do to make my basses better.

[mcmon002]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

To me open strings on basses with zero frets don't sound similar more similar to fretted notes than basses with a nut.
They allow the best possible action as said.

What material do you think does the string pressed against with when you pressd the string? A fret or a nut material? Zero fret should give you same sound as fretted coz of same fret material. Just sayin.....

[zortation]

Originally Posted by deeptubes

If the note is fretted, what difference does it make whether it's your fingers or a capo fretting them? If you have a 0 fret, E needs to be fretted. I don't see the point. Isn't a nut essentially a 0 fret with a capo? Of course A sounds fuller when fretted on E. Same as E played on a B. It's a thicker string. I fail to see the point. It just seems like it's extra unnecessary fretting. But, I've never played a 0 fret. They may have nuances that go unappreciated until playing one myself.

A zero fret is not fretted. The strings go through the nut slots and then are forced over the fret at a break angle. They rest on the fret permanently.

[THORRR]

Best way to understand the value of a well-done zero fret
is to find an instrument that has one and play it.

Once you feel the difference and hear the difference
you'll know whether you favor it or not.

Personally, I would LOVE to see Fender and all the custom
builders offer this option for those of us who would gladly
pay more to have it. I think they're missing the boat by
not offering it.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally Posted by mcmon002

What material do you think does the string pressed against with when you pressd the string? A fret or a nut material? Zero fret should give you same sound as fretted coz of same fret material. Just sayin.....

I don't care about what it should do.
In my experience (and in anyone's experience after trying it) an open string on a zero fret equiped bass sounds nothing like a fretted note and there are several reasons for it, the main one being the absence of finger pulp pressing over the string.

[Abner]

Originally Posted by THORRR

Best way to understand the value of a well-done zero fret
is to find an instrument that has one and play it.

Once you feel the difference and hear the difference
you'll know whether you favor it or not.

Thank you. I never can seem to find just the right words. That does sum it up quite nicely.

Originally Posted by THORRR

Personally, I would LOVE to see Fender and all the custom
builders offer this option for those of us who would gladly
pay more to have it. I think they're missing the boat by
not offering it.

Well, let's not get carried away. Next thing you know we'll be asking for angled headstocks...

-Alex

[Scootbass1]

I believe this like all things concerning tone, construction, electronics, maker and the myriad things we could debate about are matters of personal choice. I have owned several basses with a zero fret, headless designs, MTD and one 12 string custom order bass. On the headless basses (Steinberger and Status) I loved the use of the zero fret, same on the MTD basses. On the custom 12 string I chose it so that all of the strings followed the fingerboard radius after dealing with the 12'vers that are offered by manufacturers and the P.I.T.A. of getting the nut cut to follow the radius of the fingerboard. It worked out very well, phenomenally low action on that bass. If a bass comes with a zero fret I have no problem with it if it is done correctly. I am playing in a band with a local luthier and he is going to make me another 12 string bass, correcting the things that didn't work on the first one due to poor choices made by me, and it will have a zero fret on it for the same reason the first one did. All my current basses have top nuts on them. Some synthetic, some brass and one stainless steel. They all play and sound good to me, and I fully believe this is all that matters in the end.

Peace and Blessings to all,
Mike

[James Judson]

Did anyone here ever fall asleep at one blog then wake up in a second one. I hate it when that happens. Can someone please explain what we're talking about in this blog.