X-Bass - Experimental 3 Pickup Bass

[Flux Jetson]

Getting a little ahead of myself here, but I can't stop thinking big.

Once I get the details worked out on the prototyping bass (the Squier Vintage Modified 70's Bass that has already been modified to a 2-channel output), I'll be transfering what I have learned on the prototype to a Warmoth based build. For a while I had a hard time selecting which body style I wanted to use. It had to have pickguard options, and a large pickguard as well. It had to feel good against my body, and also to my right arm (picking/playing hand). I didn't so much give a hoot what it looked like, I don't care about "looking kewl" or any of that stuff. I've found that if you play well, the ugliest of basses suddenly begins to ~look~ very cool to observers. The better the sounds coming from it, the better looking it becomes.

Anyhow, I had considered several designs, one of which has been the Jazzmaster. I still wasn't totally settled on it though. That is, until I saw THIS one (belonging to Talk Bass member primussucks9126)



Shhhweet....

So once I saw that I began to look into the Warmoth Jazzmaster Bass 4 body more deeply. Per usual Warmoth there are a number of pickup choices and control cavity options. They'll do a reverse-P pickup too. After goofing around with their "bass body builder" page, this body came out to $185 after I got done selecting options (no, I did not buy it, I was just making wishful). Body weighs 5-pounds even. A Jazz bass body without paint weighs just about the same. I'm figuring on using alder, maybe maple. My Cort A4 is solid maple and it's as heavy as a manhole cover. Besides, Geddy's J is alder or swamp ash (dunno, I'm not sure what Fender was using on 1972 Jazz basses). On the other hand, I know Rics are Maple bodied, and my Squier VMJ is "soft maple" and it sounds really nice. So I'll have to think that out. Using maple for a Warmoth body raises the cost from $185 to $220 ... the additional $35 won't break the bank but it is worth noting.





If I am going to use a 3rd pickup (and since I have this totally cool new router) once the 3rd pickup cavity is cut I will most likely just cut interconnecting channels between all of the control cavities to simplify wiring and shielding. Perhaps something like this ......



Or maybe like this .......



I configured this pickguard using their pickguard selector page. I love the red outline, and the controls would be really nice for parallel/series other-worldlyness and other switchable options. The 5-way "Strat-type" switch on the upper horn has potential!



The black pickguard/red outlines looks really great on unfinished/oiled alder. My Shredbilly is like that.



If I get completely nuts and decide to just hack out my own body shape, I could go with the Warmoth "Chunk 'O Bass" slab and have them pre-rout everything ...





I did their ~virtual build~ thing and it came out to $123 for an alder one with P/J pickup routs, the neck pocket, and a rear-rout control cavity.

So, either a ready-to-go unfinished body or go with the Chunk 'O Bass setup. Hmmm .... the chunk is pretty appealing, I could cut it to any shape that suits me. But I honestly think the Jazzmaster Bass 4 body will be a great way to go. I can have them add a 3rd pickup cavity for $40 (anything not already in their CNC library is done by hand with a router, and they charge $40 per hour with a one hour minimum .. so that means that a 3rd pickup rout will cost 40 munnies).

I know that I'm getting ahead of myself here. But I needed a course and heading to keep things in perspective.

By the way, that beautiful Blue-on-White Jazzmaster with the Jaguar guitar chrome control plates belonging to member primussucks9126 may be heard here .....

A Rick 4003 neck pickup on a P Bass? - POST #93. He posted a number of audio tracks of it's abilities there. Here's that posting with the demo links ...

Originally Posted by primussucks9126

Recorded some quick demos for all of you guys

Everything went into a Focusrite Scarlett straight into Reaper. No compression, effects, etc.
Both are setup with fairly low action.

Jaguar Mid+Neck (the “Ric” setting)
https://soundcloud.com/sexonexmusic/...-mid-neck-demo
Jaguar Neck
https://soundcloud.com/sexonexmusic/jaguar-neck-demo
Jaguar Mid
https://soundcloud.com/sexonexmusic/jaguar-mid-demo
Jaguar Bridge/ Bridge+Mid (Just noodling. Disregard the song list below)
- This one also shows what it sounds like with the upper series/ parallel switch engaged
https://soundcloud.com/sexonexmusic/...-bridge-noodle

Ric Both
https://soundcloud.com/sexonexmusic/ric-both-demo
Ric Neck
https://soundcloud.com/sexonexmusic/ric-neck-demo
Ric Bridge
https://soundcloud.com/sexonexmusic/ric-bridge-demo

I tried show the range and variation you can get just by altering your attack.
The songs are:
1. Something that James Lomenzo played in a video. I don’t know the name of it (soft fingers)
2. Give it to me Baby- Rick James (med fingers)
3. Freewill solo section- Rush (hard fingers)
4. Disorder- Joy Division (soft/med pick)
5. Heart of the Sunrise- Yes (hard pick)
6. Hair- Larry Graham -(Slap)
7. Mr. Pink- Level 42 (Slap)
8. 46 & 2- Tool
9. She’s Lost Control- Joy Division

Sorry for all the slop, I rushed these. I hope it helps get the idea across and I hope you all find it useful. If you need anything else, let me know!!! .......

Ok, so my next step is to procure some test pickups for the prototype. I'm working a trade with member Doner Designs for some Jazz bass pickups, and I have located some P-bass ~tetris block~ pickups on ebay for under $20 buckets.

The hardest part is getting up the courage to honk out a bathtub pickup cavity, going to Lowes today to pick up a plunge bit or two for my new Bosch 1617EVSPK router that I got for x-mass (thanks mom!). Even at 52 years old I still love getting toys for Christmas!

And now, ve dahnce .... shprockets.....

[Shardik]

Nice tip about the Chunk 'O Bass. Didn't know about that one.

[Doner Designs]

Is that picture from Lost in Space or Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea??

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

To assist people that may be interested in what I (and others) are doing with some of these ideas, here's a quick list of links to some subtopics so that if someone has a question or wishes to discuss something other than this bass, they can have a place to find information that may already address their curiousity or give them venue and platform to speak about their experiences.

Adding a Guitar Amp to produce clarity and mid-voicing.
- This is exactly what it sounds like it is. Several pages of people's own ideas and experiences about using a guitar amp to add voicing and clarity.

Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE 10
- This covers adding new modules to the system that add splitting capability.
- The footswitch operated pickup-mix switcher.
- Tri-Amping.

Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE 11
- This covers filters and EQs.
- RANE PE-17 seven band Parametric EQ (this is easily the best PEQ I have ever used).
- Rolls RPQ160B six band Parametric EQ.
- Presonus EQ3B 1/3rd rack three band Parametric EQ.
- Highly modified "cocked" Cry Baby wah used as a band-pass filter.
- Setting up 4channel parallel sends and returns for parallel FX processing.
- Rolls MX14B as an alternative that can be used to parallel process FX and other effectors.

Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE 12
- This covers the use of guitar overdrives used on one channel of a parallel two channel bass amp system (aka "biamped" .. but not really, no crossovers used) to simulate the use of a guitar amp for clarity and midrange voicing.
- The notions of using algorithms in your thought processes.
- Introduction of using heavy processing on a per-pickup basis for 2-channel basses (like the one in this thread).

Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE - 13
- Introduction to the Boss LS-2 as an alternative to using high-end parallel routing gear.
- Nested FX chains in parallel FX Loops.

Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE 14
- Introduction of the first ideas about the X-Bass.
- Deep-diving into using the Boss LS-2 for parallel and series/parallel processor routings.

Show us your 3 pickup basses!
- This is a multipage thread about exactly what the title says it is about. Started by Doner Designs.

A Rick 4003 neck pickup on a P Bass?
- Yet another relevant thread that addresses much of my aspirations that this thread is here is addressing.

Can P-pickups be mixed brand-to-brand?
- And finally, this thread was informative. Some of the information in it may end up being useful for things I may end up adopting on the X-Bass.

So there ya go folks! An index of things that are relevant to this bass, yet hold content that you might wish to discuss that isn't really "bass guitar subforum" specific. This thread has the potential to wander way way off topic, so perhaps these links may help keep things moderator-friendly.

Adios Muchachos!!

That is all.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by Doner Designs

Is that picture from Lost in Space or Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea??

VOYAGE!!! To be sure!

I am a complete IRWIN ALLEN fan. He made TV hits of the 60's like:

** Voyage to the bottom of the sea.
** Lost In Space.
** The Time Tunnel.
** Land of the Giants.
** City Beneathe The Sea.

And movies such as:
** Poseidon Adventure (1972)
** The Towering Inferno (1974)
** The Swiss Family Robinson (1975)

Many of the things I design are influenced by the imagination of Irwin Allen . He simply tried harder than most other producers. I have shiploads of pics of various props and sets from those Irwin Allen productions. The first season of Lost In Space was just masterfully done. Complete black and white SciFi perfection of what we thought "space travel" would be like in the 1960s. Irwin Allen captured the imagination and dreams of many a young boy at that time. Actually, he projected what we all thought was to be the future of humanity back then.

Boy .... were we wrong. Who would have ever thought that the civilized mainstream would be completely enamored with little handheld toys that allow them to talk with others about ~nothing~ and create entire MAGAZINES about themselves (Facebook, Myspace, and so on). And our interest in human space exploration fizzled out into something demonized by negativos as nothing but a waste of resources and effort.

Yea .... that wonderful future we dreamed of as young people turned out to be all about ~self~ ... the "me" .. the "i" .. the "my" .... and of course, THUH MUNNYCHECK!

HAAHAAA! Ain't us humans a riot? We're probably a form of entertainment for other beings out there in the universe. Channel 444.44 .... "The Earthling Channel" located in the "comedy" bandwidth if intergalactic broacasting.

Forgive my cynical attitude. My faith in humanity has been shaken with great vigor a number of times in my life. Probably something I need to overcome.

[Flux Jetson]

Ok, back from space travel and dreams of youth, returning to topic here ....

I drew this up for someone here at Talk Bass. I thought it might be helpful to anyone else wanting to do this modification. (Then I accidently posted this in a different thread than this one ... DOH!) This is something that I've been asked about a number of times, so I thought I'd post it here as well to get it out there.

The diagram works with the photograph below it. The wiring colors in the diagram don't match the photo, but I think everyone will live through it.

There are several options to this type of setup, you may use a TRS jack (tip-ring-sleeve .... aka "stereo") if you want, but you'd need to construct 3-conductor cabling for that to work. You may also use XLR connectors and use a mic-cable if you wish as well. Whatever. Using two guitar cords is actually easier if you want to use various separate FX-per-pickup. You could use a Mic cable (or a stereo TRS cable) if you want then make a "breakout box" that the cable plugs in to that separates ("splits") the 3-conductor cable into the two separate signal lines. As I said, there are many variations to this theme. Whatever flicks yer thrillswitch.


** GREEN lines always = "grounds" in this diagram.

** The green line running all the way down the right of the components is the same wiring run as the bare-copper wire in the picture below (that is one single wire that I ~threaded~ through each part and soldered at each contact point, it isn't short pieces of wired all patched together .. jsyk). Yea, you could omit this wire and rely on using the jack plate as a grounding bus .... but that is very VERY poor engineering. Should one of the jacks or pots become loose the entire grounding bus's integrity is shot. You are FAR better off just taking the few minutes it requires to actually solder in a ground bus that connects everything's grounds together without any reliance on the control plate as a ground conductor. Doing it as I have done makes a solid grounding bus with absolute certainty.

If you didn't care about screwing up the chrome, soldering a ground lug to the control plate that is then soldered/connected to the ground bus would also be a more certain connection for creating the RF shielding. But that is in an ideal situation that disregards the "looks" of the chrome plating on the plate itself. As it is, the ground shield is relying on a solely mechanical connection between the pots and jacks to the plate. Uh .. "good enough" I guess, it'll have to do.

** GREY lines are the white wires coming from your pickups.

** Make sure to sand the areas on the pot-bodies where you intend to solder on them before you solder. Otherwise you may not obtain a proper solder connection. The roughed-up sanded area also gives something for the solder to grab on to.

**BE CAREFUL so as to not get any sanding dust or metal particles inside of the pot (it can get in through that tiny open -slot- right there by the pot's solder terminal). So stuff a piece of wadded-up paper (or something) into that region there to prevent any crud from getting into the pot's workings BEFORE you sand on the bodies. This is important if you do not want "scratchy-sounding" controls.



THE DIAGRAM ABOVE CORRESPONDS WITH THE PICTURE BELOW (the wiring colors do not match at all, but the layout is exactly the same):



I hope this is helpful.

I plan on using a variation of this in the X-Bass. Depending on how things work out, it may have 3 volume controls (one for each pickup) that use POP-UP "push-push" volume switch-pots. Pushing down on the pot makes it "pop-up" and either switching on or off the pickup, while the volume control sets each pickup's level.

Or something.

I hope to be taking the router to the bass body sometime this week. I've been totally buried with bill-payin' / family-feedin' work the last week or so.

Fluxation.

[Flux Jetson]

I got in some pickups a day ago. I'll be installing them soon. So I'll have one set of Duncan Design Jazz pickups in the locations that the factory installed them at, and I will also install a full second set at F36 and F24, for a total of four pickups. Paper-engineering says it should yield Ric sounds (with the added set of pickups being in traditional Rickenbacker locations) and Jazz bass sounds (with the stock pickups in the stock locales). As well as whatever else that combination of four pickups in those locations will produce.

I'll post pics of my intentions in a day or so.

[Flux Jetson]

Wow, am I liking this on paper ...



I have a ton of work to do (bill payin' work) but as soon as I get the half-day I'll need to cut/rout the new pickup holes - I am TOTALLY doing this!

As a research tool it will have no volume controls, the pickups will be wired directly to four output jacks. If it works out and I decide the whole setup is a keeper, when I have the Warmoth body made up and that bass get's built it shall be named the RJ. Ric/Jazz.

Know that I do not expect ~exact~ Ric tones, but that general direction will do nicely. By the time most rock bassists get done with a Ric's sound it has lost some of the actual "Ric-ness" and has become more of what the individual player wants anyhow.

Good times ahead.

[jlepre]

Why stop there? How about EIGHT!

[Flux Jetson]

How funny, that's funny, you're funny!

[KISSbestfan]

Meanwhile, a friend of mine plays something like this:
http://i001.radikal.ru/1205/ea/2289240ee007.jpg
His father gave him this bass guitar (I mean model, not the same seen on photo), it has loads of settings, and as you can see also 3 pickups.
And by the way, it comes from 1983, from mighty USSR. As many products from this country its not matched any way by US standarts (f.ex. 23 frets or built in fuzz ...)

Anyway to me its a really good idea. Have you seen a "Strato bass" projects ? They had put 3 pu's as well, and it sounds not bad.

[Flux Jetson]

I'm hoping to get a start on this tomorrow. Picking up the needed router bit this afternoon at Lowes, as well as a forstner bit or two for the initial hogging-out of a universal pickup cavity (aka "bathtub routing").

I ordered two sets of cheapo P-Bass pickups from ebay - six bucks per set .. SHIPPED! .. for new pickups ... granted, they're Chinese "no brand" units, but for initial testing they'll most likely do. And I already have two extra Duncan Designed J-bass pickups.

So I have this in mind --




Spacing out P2 and P4 a little bit more may even negate the need for P1 and P5 totally. On my stock Jazz bass, I like the sound of the E/A strings when both pickups are ON. But I do NOT like the sound of the D/G strings in that state. On the other hand, I like the sound of the D/G strings when just the neck pickup is ON, but the E/A strings suffer a bit then. I also find that I like the sound best when I play at a diagonal, meaning that I pick the E string right about between the two pickups, the A string just a little further towards the neck pickup, the D string on the other side of the neck pickup, and the G string closer to the actual neck itself ... a diagonal line just about like what P1 - P2 - P4 - and P5 are making there, like what I added to this picture (below).



Sortof a straight line between P1 and P5. So, the idea here is to place pickups in those relative locations. As I said, it may end up that I only have P2, P3, and P4 arranged along that line (with the strings "splitting" the pole pieces) and positioned on F36-the stock J/P-F24 locations. With P1 and P5 eliminated.

The "Super P Array" is just a whacky idea I threw in there "jist cuz".

And there is also this --



If I go with this setup I'm guessing the stock J-bridge pickup will go away in the end.

Still working out a test-bed wiring setup and outputs. I may even resort to patchcords or some such weirdness to be able to reroute anything to anywhere and change parallel/series relationships easily. It would require mounting an aluminum box of sorts near the control plate. The box would house 10 1/8 inch (3.5mm) mini-jacks, each one wired to each pickup's connection leads. Then small patchcords (which I have plenty of) would be used to arrange the various pickups in any routing I wish. Volume controls and EQ are to be done externally with my rack and modular rigging. I have three parametric EQs and a dedictated VST computer with Antares Filter and Amplitube installed on it for doing multi-channel filtering and processing. I could conceivably route each pickup to it's own discrete set of eqs and preamps to test many setups.

The idea here is to REDUCE the final setup to as SIMPLE a setup as absolutely possible. If it ends up that I mount just a simple P-bass pickup in the ~normal~ location, and use a single parametric EQ for processing into a Tech 21 BDDI as a preamp .. then so be it. Whatever it is that creates the versatile bass that I hear in my head is what will be used in the actual finished bass (body most likely coming from Warmoth).

And just to show them ... these are cool as all hell too ....







They're single-pole bobbins that are wired as humbuckers, so in essence there are two separate humbucking pickups per set of Split-P pickups. Conceivably one could sever the interconnecting wire between each coil and have separate signal paths per pole piece if desired. Since they're handwound the winder may even be convinced to do that for you.

I'm beginning to learn that the number of available options are nearly boundless. I am also beginning to think that what has been used forever may be more of a case of manufacturing convenience rather than what may be the most versatile.

End update.

[KeithAlanK]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

And there is also this --

Awesome mock-up that answers some questions re: Ric vs Jazz sweet-spots. I never bothered to measure my ex-Jazz OR ask a Ric owner for specs. IF it's as simple as pickup placement, the possibility of Ric-ish and Jazz sounds from a single axe is crazy.

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

And just to show them ... these are cool as all hell too ....






They're single-pole bobbins that are wired as humbuckers, so in essence there are two separate humbucking pickups per set of Split-P pickups.

These remind me of the namesake part of Tom Petersson's original Hamer "Quad" 12-string. There was one little 2-pole pickup lengthwise under each 3-string octave set, fed to an onboard mixer with EQ if I remember correctly.
What an interesting find! I bet they'll come in handy for all sorts of experiments. You might want to try them Hamer-style with one unit/pair under each string, for an 8-coil humbucker that's optimized for your desired response.
Should they yield results you want to improve upon, don't forget that there are plenty of humbucking Jazz pickups out there that are essentially Precision style 2-string coils in one unit. Whether they can be physically separated is unknown, but electrically split to run independently should be easy enough.
I'm leaning towards a Delano J split (not stacked) humbucker for the neck position on my 8-string, but Bartolini and even DiMarzio are possibles.


And I totally "get" your diagonal line representing where each string gets picked (or plucked).
This has really been bugging me lately, having to move my right hand so much along the length of the strings to get the refined tone I'm seeking. As my amp rig gets better it's less of a problem, but the sound engineer in me keeps making it difficult to relax and just play the right notes.
Especially live, where I need a few brain cells in reserve to keep from tripping over my own feet or drooling.
Heavier strings seem to help, but at some point your main bass and backup/alt-tuning instruments can end up too far apart in their preferences.

If my vote means anything, I would love to see and hear the 4-pickup RJ built.

[Shardik]

Where did you find those single bobbins? I have been on the same track myself for achieving humbucking in a single row PU. I imagine that those bobbins are really easy to wind, too.

[Stealth]

The super-P pickup array is definitely a new thing for me, even though it should've been an obvious thing. Can't wait to see how it'll work if you go that way.

[howardcano]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

And just to show them ... these are cool as all hell too ....







They're single-pole bobbins that are wired as humbuckers, so in essence there are two separate humbucking pickups per set of Split-P pickups. Conceivably one could sever the interconnecting wire between each coil and have separate signal paths per pole piece if desired. Since they're handwound the winder may even be convinced to do that for you.

Who makes these?

[BlueTalon]

Originally Posted by KeithAlanK

Awesome mock-up that answers some questions re: Ric vs Jazz sweet-spots. I never bothered to measure my ex-Jazz OR ask a Ric owner for specs. IF it's as simple as pickup placement, the possibility of Ric-ish and Jazz sounds from a single axe is crazy.

For what it's worth, I once had a Rickenbacker in which I swapped out the stock pickups for 22-pole Carvin bass pickups. The sound might have changed a bit, but not much. It still had that quintessential Ric flavor to the tone, which led me to believe that a lot of the sound had to do with the pickup placement and the wood. (In the mod, I also took the tone controls out entirely -- knowing what I know now, that also affected the tone, but I didn't know that then. I thought the tone was just the same as it was with the tone knobs cranked, so I didn't take that into account when comparing the sounds before and after.)

[Bassamatic]

Those dual single coil split pickups are from Sentell Pickups. I just saw them on eBay, and I think I have to order a set. My genius engineer says that that is the way they SHOULD be made.

[howardcano]

Originally Posted by Bassamatic

Those dual single coil split pickups are from Sentell Pickups. I just saw them on eBay, and I think I have to order a set. My genius engineer says that that is the way they SHOULD be made.

Thanks for the info! They look like a very convenient way to get one humbucking pickup per string, using each half rotated 90 degrees.

[Fenwick]

Ummm...I don't really get some of the technical aspects of your descriptions, but this is fascinating. You are manifesting so many of my fantasies and curiosities. Keep 'em coming!

Would love to hear any sound samples when you're ready.

[Herbie Chesnutt]

I've been away from TB for a while and I come back and find you guys are hitting the neatest stuff ever around here. Just the double jack harness alone is cool enough and its just a side note in this thread. Awesome. Between Flux owning TB with this thread and Marko's carbon fiber threads and great designs I'm getting no work done cuz all I want to do is catch up with you mad scientists. Bravo.