Dreaming of a split bass cab / subwoofer live rig again, need advice

[bovine mind]

Current rig: SVT-CL, Ampeg 810e, Sunn 215bh loaded with EV 400w speakers, Gibson ripper tuned to drop C.

I'm looking to have the physical presence of my drop tuned bass be felt at all parts of the room. I'm satisfied with my how rig feels and sounds a few feet around it or in corners and near the walls of a medium sized room. walking into the center of the room, the effect is marginal, somewhat felt, can hear the notes clear enough, but not much pants leg flapping or abdomen pressure.

So I'm looking to add a subwoofer to my rig. Probably will get rig of the Sunn 215 and use it in its place. Ideally I'd like the high pressure feeling attained in the corners to be felt in all parts of the room.

I'll keep the SVT-CL/810E rig and split my signal via crossover with the hypothetical sub. the style of music borders doom metal & heavy psych so keeping the SVT stack is necessary, but I'm also looking for that overwhelming sub bass found in electronic music to be tucked under everything. most of the venues we are playing are on the smaller side and don't have dedicated subs.


1. how many watts will I typically need to fill small to medium sized clubs with body thumping sub bass? my budget is around $500, mainly used markets, anyone recommend a particular model?

2. I use a lot of high gain fuzz, distortion, effects. If i am using a crossover, how will the sub handle the distorted signals I will send to it?

[rpsands]

You'd do better running the 810 full range and the sub low passed at 150-200hz or so. You would be better off buying a subwoofer for your PA and sending a di signal to the FOH, with your cabinet mic'd as well (blend the two signals).

1) depends on the subwoofer since they tend to have different sensitivity specs. also depends on the volume of everything else and what you define body thumping bass as.

2) just get a distortion pedal that doesn't suck lows and run it full range.


3) remember that you need two power amps if you want to use an active crossover - each side of the signal needs to be amplified. A powered subwoofer would suit here since they tend to have crossovers built in which can receive a line level signal from your bass head.

4) You would be far better served by getting a cabinet that can alone do what you want it to on stage and investing in your PA, IMHO.

[bovine mind]

Thanks for writing, a few responses written into your quote below....

Originally Posted by rpsands

You'd do better running the 810 full range and the sub low passed at 150-200hz or so. You would be better off buying a subwoofer for your PA and sending a di signal to the FOH, with your cabinet mic'd as well (blend the two signals).

1) depends on the subwoofer since they tend to have different sensitivity specs. also depends on the volume of everything else and what you define body thumping bass as.


Essentially I want to be felt in the center of most mediums sized rooms, I guess for $500 I'm wondering and hoping I can find that.


2) just get a distortion pedal that doesn't suck lows and run it full range.

I use a true bypass loop switcher with a blend knob, my fuzz, distortion, and effects have enough lows tucked under. What I want to know is, if I send a heavily fuzzed out signal to my subwoofer by just using a crossover, will it be damage the sub in any way?


3) remember that you need two power amps if you want to use an active crossover - each side of the signal needs to be amplified. A powered subwoofer would suit here since they tend to have crossovers built in which can receive a line level signal from your bass head.



Would sending the pre-amp out on my SVT-CL to the input on a power amp not work?



4) You would be far better served by getting a cabinet that can alone do what you want it to on stage and investing in your PA, IMHO.


I may not have been clear about this. My STAGE mix is fine. Totally overwhelming and rediculous within a few feet of my cabs, feels great. It's when I walk into the center of the room where the crowd is, can't feel it nearly as much as if I were hugging the walls or in a corner.

[nastyn8c]

Two words: Guitamer Buttkicker

[rpsands]

It sounds like your mix in the FOH is the problem and you just need to add a crossed over sub to your band's PA. that is easy..

Buy an active subwoofer and run a line out from your band's mixer to it. The Carvin active neos look pretty good to me.

Another option is, if you already have a power amp, to buy a Kappalite 3015LF fEarful Sub from Low Down Sound and hit it with a power amp.

[Metal Matt]

I'd seriously save up money, get a 500+ watt power amp for the sub side of things, and a 2x18 PA cab... AND I'd keep using the 2x15 and 8x10. But, you know how I feel about this stuff... the more the better as far as rigs for doom bands go.

I say a 2x18, just because I imagine a single speaker alone couldn't possibly fill a whole room with sub bass as intense as you're talking about, without failing soon from having to do a job suited for multiple speakers.

[bovine mind]

Originally Posted by Metal Matt

I'd seriously save up money, get a 500+ watt power amp for the sub side of things, and a 2x18 PA cab... AND I'd keep using the 2x15 and 8x10. But, you know how I feel about this stuff... the more the better as far as rigs for doom bands go.

I say a 2x18, just because I imagine a single speaker alone couldn't possibly fill a whole room with sub bass as intense as you're talking about, without failing soon from having to do a job suited for multiple speakers.

Word Matt. I'd feel the same way as you if I played in a bass and drums only band. But as it is I'm running 4 cabs on stage....810/215 for my bass, peavey 1820 1x18+2x10 for my fake moog taurus rig, and another 2x15PA cab dedicated to textural ambient loops. then there is our guitarists full stack, and the drum synthesizer we use takes forever to setup, basically our entire band rig barely fits on stage and if we are the 2nd band we are kind of screwed for sound check and load/drop off time slots.

the subwoofer would only act alone in venues without any subs, fairly small bars for the most part. our practice space is pretty big, and is about the same size as the average venues we play in the bay area.

the other option i'm looking at is to just buy a power amp with at least 800watts to use with my Sunn 2x15. I gutted the original speakers from the cab and replaced them with 400w each speakers that I was able to snag as dead stock from a movie theatre sound system. They should be able to take the abuse from a power amp.

It really doesn't help having band memebers who are also open minded and want to try to mix different genres of music. If we were strictly interested in doom we'd have what we need, but I'm still in search of that elusive overwhelming synthy sub bass feeling that you don't really get using a traditional doom rig.

[rpsands]

I just cannot understand why you run a rig that big..for anything.

[bovine mind]

Originally Posted by rpsands

I just cannot understand why you run a rig that big..for anything.

Feels good, man.

hah, well, really it's just the style[s] of music.

A big inspiration for me personally is this band:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyeSl...eature=related

although ironically enough, they just play through the house PA when they tour! but we're interested in trying that out with a real rig. headaches abound, but nothing compares to the sensation of your entire body lost in a tide of fuzzed bass.

or maybe you've heard of My Bloody Valentine? you've got to start somewhere.

[megadan]

I'm normally all for the giant rigs of doom, heck with the FOH. But in this case I think this is exactly WHY they created FOH. If your on stage sound is excellent, then that's great. The problem with losing bass in the center of the room is exactly why they created PA's: to spread the sound evenly around the room.

As mentioned, you'd probably be better off getting a sub for your PA system, then your bass, and synth, and samples, and kick drum can all be re-enforced and provide plenty of low end all around the room.

[megadan]

Originally Posted by bovine mind

A big inspiration for me personally is this band:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyeSl...eature=related

although ironically enough, they just play through the house PA when they tour! but we're interested in trying that out with a real rig. headaches abound, but nothing compares to the sensation of your entire body lost in a tide of fuzzed bass.

Saw them last week, a little underwhelming. It was in a pretty tiny bar and it sounded pretty weak threw the PA, even re-enforced with subs. The lack of amps on stage (and a real drummer) really brought down what should be been a massive show. The songs were great, but with that style of music, if you don't have the overwhelming physical presence, you lose a lot of emotion of the work.

[nastyn8c]

Seriously, check out the buttkicker. You want feeling, it will get you feeling. Everything I've heard makes it sound like exactly what you're looking for.

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by nastyn8c

Seriously, check out the buttkicker. You want feeling, it will get you feeling. Everything I've heard makes it sound like exactly what you're looking for.

Is he supposed to get one for everyone in the audience?

[Metal Matt]

Originally Posted by nastyn8c

Seriously, check out the buttkicker. You want feeling, it will get you feeling. Everything I've heard makes it sound like exactly what you're looking for.

You're missing something here... the intent for the OP and most bands playing doom metal and other associated genres, is for the entire crowd to feel it as much as the band.

In my band if I stand in the right spot in front of my rig, my vision blurs a little. It's getting that type of air pressure out into the entire crowd that the OP is after.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Metal Matt

It's getting that type of air pressure out into the entire crowd that the OP is after.

And that's precisely what PA is for. I agree on the intent, but not the method. BTW, the output of PA subs is 100% omni-directional, so the same content that goes to the audience also goes to the stage. That being the case there's no need to have major sub-bass capability both on stage and out front, out front alone is sufficient. And by having the sub capability on the PA rather than the backline it can also be used with the drums, which has every bit as much need for it as the bass.

[Metal Matt]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

And that's precisely what PA is for. I agree on the intent, but not the method. BTW, the output of PA subs is 100% omni-directional, so the same content that goes to the audience also goes to the stage. That being the case there's no need to have major sub-bass capability both on stage and out front, out front alone is sufficient. And by having the sub capability on the PA rather than the backline it can also be used with the drums, which has every bit as much need for it as the bass.

Agreed. Not like I have a choice since you're right and all. haha

I only suggested adding subs to the backline because OP said most of the venues he's playing are smaller clubs that don't have dedicated subs. In the interest of being able to get near same results no matter what venue they play, I'd still think that adding a sub and power amp to his rig would be a good choice. Then, whenever they play somewhere that does have a good PA, he can leave the sub and power amp for it at home and figure things out with the soundman.

[ChrisB2]

I'm dreaming of adding a sub to my rig too.

We rarely play with house sound, and I also want a chest-thumping bass without so much of the loudness of the mid and high frequencies. Whenever I try to EQ this sound, I get more mud than thump. That could be the rig, but I doubt it. Ampeg SVP-Pro pre, Crest CC2800 power, Avatar B212 and B210. It has plenty of power to get the pressure, but then the overall volume is too loud, plus by then the tone is whacked.

Like you, I didn't get a lot of support for the sub idea in the thread I posted. The best advice I received (which you have also already received) was; run your bass cab(s) at full range, then send only lows to the sub.

Since I run a large power amp anyway, powering a rig like this shouldn't be a problem for me.

I'm looking at two units:

Budget sub, Cerwin-Vega 18"


Better sub, Cerwin-Vega 18" folded horn


If it doesn't work out, I can always sell it or keep it for the band's PA.

As far as your concern over the bass being lost in the center of the room; it's my understanding that bass frequencies are intensified in a room's corners, and diminish toward the center. So if you do get the sound pressure you want in the center of the room, it may be unbearable in the corners. Something to think about.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

[bovine mind]

Originally Posted by Metal Matt

Agreed. Not like I have a choice since you're right and all. haha

I only suggested adding subs to the backline because OP said most of the venues he's playing are smaller clubs that don't have dedicated subs. In the interest of being able to get near same results no matter what venue they play, I'd still think that adding a sub and power amp to his rig would be a good choice. Then, whenever they play somewhere that does have a good PA, he can leave the sub and power amp for it at home and figure things out with the soundman.

Exactly my conundrum. At this point we are playing in venues with minimal to no subwoofer support. Pretty much full range PA systems. When we eventually book a place that has a sub, I'll leave mine at home and run a signal to theirs in a manner the sound man feels comfortable with.

[rpsands]

If I needed a sub and it wasn't powered, I would:
-Buy a used Peavey 115BW
-replace the driver with a 3015LF
-cut another port and adjust the lengths for proper tuning
-rock

When you look at the real performance specs for most of the PA subs out there they are pretty pathetic until you get to the VERY expensive stuff.

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by bovine mind

Exactly my conundrum. At this point we are playing in venues with minimal to no subwoofer support. Pretty much full range PA systems. When we eventually book a place that has a sub, I'll leave mine at home and run a signal to theirs in a manner the sound man feels comfortable with.

If you set a powered sub down in front of the stage by their normal PA stuff, if they don't have subs, and ask their sound guys to run a line to it, I don't think any of them would complain. Maybe I'm wrong though.