Low Down Sound 15/6.5 Cab

[KJung]

Hey guys! There has been a lot of interest in this particular cab configuration lately, and a few of the guys who have similar cabs on the way, or who are considering one of these cabs, are interested some 'early' feedback on them. So, Don brought one over for us to pound on this morning.

Don has been making this sort of design for quite a few years, but like other cab designers on the site, he became even more interested in this general design with the introduction of the new super duper Eminence Neo 115 and that super duper 18Sound mid driver (I have no clue as to the specific model numbers, but I assume others can fill in that info).

I should point out that the particular cab I tried was not based on some of the specific designs talked about here on Talkbass, but is Don's own take of this general design (i.e., 15/6.5), along with a Ralf Patterson custom crossover. I also don't know the crossover design or particulars, but the general crossover point is 1.3K or so, based on a post Ralf just put up over on the LDS Mega thread.

I'm good friends with Don, and am a fan of his cabs in general, but given that bias, I try to be as honest as I can. So, you can take my personal relationship with Don into account as you see fit when reading my review below

Steve (the Burk-man) was nice enough to come over to put a second set of ears on this box (I'm sure he will post up in a while). Our 'test rig' was my new Markbass F500 and my TecAmp Puma500 (the cab is 8ohms), playings Don's KILLER 62 Fender J reissue, my Alleva LG, my new fretted Rob Allen Mouse, and Steve's killer Sadowsky NYC ash/maple Vintage 5.

We used my 4ohm Bergantino AE410 as a sort of 'comparison context', since I'm so familiar with the performance of that cab.

OK, first, some pictures of Don with the cab, Steve playing, and pictures of the cab with the grill on and off.









Fit and Finish: Absolutely first rate. The cab weighs around 45 pounds or so (light), with beautiful old school tolex and that vintage grill cloth that is very nicely mounted with the heavy duty plastic velcro type fasteners. The cab is 8ohm, has a 1/4 and speakon input on the back, and has an attenuator for the mid driver. Two relatively large tube ports are located in the top left and lower right corners.

Tone: In a word, wonderful. The low end is deep, deep, deep, but not muddy at all (MUCH more open then the AE410, which I guess is to be expected, given that is a tightly voiced 410). That 6.5 mid driver is something, and Don putting an attenuator on there IMO is a VERY good idea. This cab can get BRIGHT, and the most pleasing tone to my ear was with the attenuator at around 10 o'clock. I must admit, the paper cone top end that is more bright than sizzly is not my personal thing. However... with the Fender and Alleva LG (more old school basses with nickel rounds), it just growled and purred. It sounded WONDERFUL! The Sadowsky with singles sounded good, but IMO, that bass likes the tightness, upper mid grind, and sizzle of a more traditional 2 way cab. The Mouse... forget about it. With the Puma... DB proxy heaven!!!! Fantastic.

This was a basement test, so I can't comment on dispersion, etc., etc., but this cab sounded incredibly fat but articulate and even... much less upper mid forward than the AE410. So, to my ear, Ralf and Don got the crossover just right (or at least it sounded darn good to me personally).

The Puma500 just PURRED through this cab, although at 8ohms, the volume was limited with the Puma (which is one of the best sounding heads I've experienced, but not particularly the loudest for its power rating, especially at 8ohms). On the other hand (Bruce... B String... are you listening), the F500 was a HAMMER. The F500 didn't have that creamy fatness and smooth top end that this cab seemed to be built for, but it killed in the volume and punch area, and sounded quite nice, if a bit 'rougher' than the Puma. Of course, at the same volume settings, both heads were significantly louder with the AE410, but this makes sense, given the impedance and I assume SPL difference. I was thinking how good an Eden WT800 bridged into this cab must sound.

So, for those of you who have similar cabs on the way, as long as you are looking for articulate, fat, a bit old school, and the ability to get quite bright without any upper treble sizzle, I can't imagine that you won't be pleased.

IMO and..... IME! (at least in the basement).

[Chef]

Nice review, thx...if you can get burk-man to chime in too, that'd be interesting...

[CElton]

Originally Posted by KJung

...as long as you are looking for articulate, fat, a bit old school, and the ability to get quite bright without any upper treble sizzle, I can't imagine that you won't be pleased.

IMO and..... IME! (at least in the basement).

This is intriguing. Thanks as always for the review!

[Blues Cat]

Thanks Ken, sounds like a winner.

[bassplayer7770]

Thanks for the review, KJ. I look forward to reading Steve's review as well.

My amp only puts out 200 watts @ 8 ohms, so I might have to look into a more powerful (and lighter) amp at some point. I played a gig last night, and my 4 ohm 410 cab just wasn't really cutting it on stage. Admittedly, we were playing louder than usual. I think the 15/6.5 will be a much better full-range cab, though, and I don't use the tweeter on my 410 anyway.

[Chef]

I'd be more inclined to think 200 watts was your problem, and not the cab.
The avatar 410Neo, while not my personal fave, oughta be able to throw plenty of sound.

Expecting an 8 ohm 15/6 to outperform a decent 4 ohm 410 is expecting quite a bit, I think.

ymmv, etc.

[rpatter]

Now I'm really anxious to get my hands on that cab. A year or two ago I built a 3 way cabinet for myself with the 3015LF and an 8" neo mid (along with a horn). I crossed the 3015LF over at 800Hz and after a while really wished I had crossed it over higher, because I felt it needed to breathe a little more. Unfortunately, since it was my personal cabinet I was too lazy to open it up and change it! That was why I was comfortable going higher on this one.

I dug out the schematic for that crossover and I see that there is no resistor on the 6ND410 after all. Don must have told me he was going to put an L-pad on it. Do you think it would benefit from a 1-2 db pad in addition to the L-pad?

Ralf

[bassplayer7770]

Originally Posted by Chef

I'd be more inclined to think 200 watts was your problem, and not the cab.
The avatar 410Neo, while not my personal fave, oughta be able to throw plenty of sound.

Expecting an 8 ohm 15/6 to outperform a decent 4 ohm 410 is expecting quite a bit, I think.

ymmv, etc.

The 410 NEO is a 4 ohm cab, and my amp puts out 350 watts @ 4 ohms. Regardless, we don't usually play that loud. I don't expect the 15/6.5 to be louder, but I do believe it will likely sound better to my ears. Like I said, I don't necessarily mind considering a more powerful and lighter weight head. Plus, I wanted to downsize my cabs a bit because I've had some knee issues recently.

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by rpatter

Now I'm really anxious to get my hands on that cab. A year or two ago I built a 3 way cabinet for myself with the 3015LF and an 8" neo mid (along with a horn). I crossed the 3015LF over at 800Hz and after a while really wished I had crossed it over higher, because I felt it needed to breathe a little more. Unfortunately, since it was my personal cabinet I was too lazy to open it up and change it! That was why I was comfortable going higher on this one.

I dug out the schematic for that crossover and I see that there is no resistor on the 6ND410 after all. Don must have told me he was going to put an L-pad on it. Do you think it would benefit from a 1-2 db pad in addition to the L-pad?

Ralf

Based on the numbers I'm hearing, 3db pad seems standard for the 6nd410 and the 3015LF.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by rpatter

Now I'm really anxious to get my hands on that cab. A year or two ago I built a 3 way cabinet for myself with the 3015LF and an 8" neo mid (along with a horn). I crossed the 3015LF over at 800Hz and after a while really wished I had crossed it over higher, because I felt it needed to breathe a little more. Unfortunately, since it was my personal cabinet I was too lazy to open it up and change it! That was why I was comfortable going higher on this one.

I dug out the schematic for that crossover and I see that there is no resistor on the 6ND410 after all. Don must have told me he was going to put an L-pad on it. Do you think it would benefit from a 1-2 db pad in addition to the L-pad?

Ralf

Hey Ralf.

That 6.5 is really loud! The L-Pad seemed to work fine the way you had it, but I would think that padding it down a touch more would allow more fine tuning with the attenuator.

[renejaime]

hmm hmmm, stack two of those and a DB750 on top...

[Blues Cat]

Originally Posted by KJung

Hey Ralf.

That 6.5 is really loud! The L-Pad seemed to work fine they way you had it, but I would think that padding it down a touch more would allow more fine tuning with the attenuator.

I would say don't imho. If you leave the pad as is it allows you to add a 115 cab w/out another 6ND410.

You can always just turn it down.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Blues Cat

I would say don't imho. If you leave the pad as is it allows you to add a 115 cab w/out another 6ND410.

You can always just turn it down.

You know, this is an excellent point. Don and I were actually talking about the fact that the 6.5 has so much juice that you probably could get away without one on the extension cab.

+1 I guess as long as you have the attenuator, the padding is a bit of a moot point.

[Blues Cat]

Originally Posted by KJung

You know, this is an excellent point. Don and I were actually talking about the fact that the 6.5 has so much juice that you probably could get away without one on the extension cab.

+1 I guess as long as you have the attenuator, the padding is a bit of a moot point.

Exactly.

I actually told Don that I want the mid wide open unpadded so I have the possibilty of adding a 1x15KLLF w/no mid on the 2nd cab. It would be cheaper too. Why pad it further if there's an attenuator.

[rpsands]

Yeah, I am in agreement on that, but I'm really interested in a fixed position attenuator. It's nice to know how much you're padding it back. Also, don't Lpads muck with the crossover points and such some?

If you weren't using an attenuator you'd really want around 3db of padding I think.

[burk48237]

My biggest regret was that I didn't bring my T'funk 550 over to check out the cab with. I get the feeling that combo would just be old school sweetness. It really was everything K said it was, and just a little bigger then my 210 UL LDS at about the same weight. I can't imagine a smaller cab that would give you this much sound without any of the harshness that you can get with some of the more modern stuff.

With the mouse it sounded big but not floppy. I think that was the big difference with this cab. For the most part I'm not a fan of fifteens because they tend to be a little slow and not tight sounding, even some twelves bother me with this. But this cab was as quick as any ten loaded cab with a rounder smoother bottom. It was almost like you got the bottom end of a good fifteen cab with the tightness and articulateness of ten loaded cab. Eminence really did their homework on that driver. That really came thru when K was playing the Sadowsky though it. I didn't ask Don his price, because I'm not a shopper right now, but I suspect knowing Dons penchant for bargains this is going to be one heck of a contender in the best buy category.

[gerryjazzman]

The interesting thing about these type of cabinets, particularly with the new "super" neo drivers like the Eminence 3015LF (and it's 3012LF sibling) are capable of significant output due to their large excursion capabilities, so much so that they can perform as well as multiple "lesser" drivers in many cases, as long as there is enough power to drive them. The only thing is that they are nominally 8 ohms due to the fact that they are single 8 ohm drivers (well duh). Many of the small lightweight heads seem to be optimum with 4 ohm loads (500 - 600 watts seems to be the sweet spot for most of these, i.e. LMII, Shuttle 6.0, BX500, MB2-500, etc). It seems like one would want about this amount of power into 8 ohms to take full advantage of these cabinets. The 3015LF for instance can take its full thermal limit of 450 watts without exceeding its xmax in a properly designed enclosure, which is phenominal. Sure you could get that power with bigger (read more expensive) amps, and or going bridged (read more expensive amps). It seems like an amp that could deliver 500 watts or so into 8 ohms and maybe not necessarily any more into 4 ohms (kind of like the way Carvin switches it's power supply to maintain 500 watts into 4 or 2 ohms) would be ideal and might allow a manufacturer to stay in the same price point.

[GearHeadBassMan]

Originally Posted by renejaime

hmm hmmm, stack two of those and a DB750 on top...

+1. getting a top cab with the reverse of this design would probably be so much more of a good thing.

I like LDS's incarnation of this type of cab because it's not thin on dimensions, which is the one thing I don't really like about the barefaced/fEARful solution. of course, they are also 3 way.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by rpsands

Yeah, I am in agreement on that, but I'm really interested in a fixed position attenuator. It's nice to know how much you're padding it back. Also, don't Lpads muck with the crossover points and such some?

If you weren't using an attenuator you'd really want around 3db of padding I think.

This is getting over my head, but yes, if you decided to go without an attenuator, that mid driver would need some serious padding IMO.

[rpatter]

When I say pad it down a little, I'm not talking about anything significant. I was thinking nothing larger than a 2 ohm resistor (I'd probably end up with 1- 1.5 ohm) in series with the mid, just to give the L-pad a little more wiggle room. As far as it affecting the crossover, that's really splitting hairs. Yes, it will have a minute affect on the crossover, but nothing any of us would hear if we A/B'ed one cab with the 2 ohm resistor (L-pad at 2 o'clock) vs another cab without a resistor (L-pad set at 10 o'clock).

Ralf

Originally Posted by Blues Cat

Exactly.

I actually told Don that I want the mid wide open unpadded so I have the possibilty of adding a 1x15KLLF w/no mid on the 2nd cab. It would be cheaper too. Why pad it further if there's an attenuator.