I STILL fail at getting volume!!!!

[Destructobot]

I posted a couple weeks ago about how my rig was really underwhelming me with the volume it was producing. I had a rack setup with a Crown XLS 602 pushing a stack of a 2x12 and 2x10 Avatar cabs.

I ditched the rack setup and picked up a Carvin B1500. I still have the same problems I did with the rack setup: very unimpressive volume, and when I turn it up the amp starts clipping and goes into protect mode. That's happening with the drive about noon, volume around 5, and bass & sub bass both set just a bit above unity for a little boost. The cones in the cab are moving like crazy, but just not giving much oomph. I tried running the amp through each cab separately to ensure it wasn't a phase issue - that didn't help at all.

We ran my friend's 100w plexi Marshall through the avatar cabs and got the same result: tons of movement on the cones and mucho excursion, but very, very underwhelming volume. A fuzz pedal through his quad reverb Fender amp on about 3 was drowning out the bass.

We ran bass through the plexi and into two 4x12 guitar cabs and got at least as much volume as the supposedly 1600w carvin setup provided. That is messed up and insane.


Now, having tried more than one amp through the avatar cabs and gotten the same crappy result, I'm thinking the problem is the cabs. This makes no sense to me though - I've never heard a bad word about the avatar neo cabs, and CERTAINLY never heard that they are crazy inefficient. There are a couple cabs on CL here locally (old Sunn 2x15, Ampeg 6x10, Schroeder 21012) that I'd like to try out with the carvin amp, if at least just to see whether my cabs are the problem.

Considering how nice the 100w plexi sounded, part of me is thinking I ought to just bite the bullet and get an SVT. I'm not a diehard tube guy, but it sure seems like a strike against SS when a 100w guitar amp can match a monster 1600w SS amp in terms of volume.

[Schecter4]

Originally Posted by Destructobot

That's happening with the drive about noon, volume around 5, and bass & sub bass both set just a bit above unity for a little boost. The cones in the cab are moving like crazy, but just not giving much oomph.

So, what about midrange and treble?

What kind of bass, and what is the EQ like on it?

[bigblondeafro87]

A 2x12 plus 2x10 isn't much more speaker area than a 4x10, so you won't be getting much more volume than one. I find that in some situations a 4x10 can be lacking, maybe you want an 8x10, or a 4x12??

[totallybacan]

+1 to the other eq settings. Remember, they recommend that if you boost bass, you also sub bass and the other way around. I would try turning up low mids as well as mids.

[higgi]

+1 810

[DukeLeJeune]

Well this is a long shot, but neodymium can permanently lose flux (magnetic strength) if severely overheated. I don't know what temperature it would take, and it probably varies from one type of neodymium to another. Ceramic also loses flux when overheated but it's temporary; the flux returns to normal when it cools down.

Another long shot possibility is that you have low voltage at your wall outlet, so your amps are clipping prematurely because they're power starved.

[SwamiRob]

Perhaps your cabs aren't voiced in a way to give you the deep bass your after, if a cab isn't engineered to put out that kind of bass your not gonna be able to force it by boosting bass. It does sound like they're acting pretty bloody pathetic though, have you always had this problem as long as you've owned them? Did you get them 2nd hand or new?

[newbold]

try new cabs before trying a new amp.

rent.

[cliffbass1]

I would think it would be the cabs, if you can play thru a guitar rig and have it be louder than yours, i'd look at the cabinets. See if you can bring your amp into a guitar store and let you play thru a cab or too or maybe ... check the wiring of the cabinets maybe the wiring job sucks I know that avatar uses the clip on style connectors.

[Destructobot]

Eq? Come on. I'm pushing 1600w supposedly, and getting beat out by a 100w guitar amp. It's not an EQ issue.

The 2x12 I bought brand new and have never pushed hard. The 2x10 I bought from a local dude who was very easy on his stuff.


I'm just confused - I read all these reviews of the Avatar 2x12 talking about how they push so much volume with it the sound guys are telling them to turn down. Meanwhile I add a 2x10 to that and get jack squat. It just doesn't make sense. Doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the cabs. They sound fine and work fine, just don't give me the big thumping volume I expect. I find it hard to believe I need an 8x10 to keep up with one guitar amp in my friend's basement.

[John Bigboote]

The part that I'm not getting is the "cones are moving like crazy" part. That would seem to eliminate driver issues as the cause of the problem; if they're moving like crazy, they should be pushing a hell of a lot of air. Is there any chance the speakers are out of phase within the cab(s) themselves/itself? I would definitely go into that cab with a multitester, and check every one of the connections, taking nothing for granted.

The other thing that's weird is the clipping. That's a beast of a head, and it's hard to imagine you could drive it that hard without seriously destroying something.

As others have said, where are your mids? That's what you hear most, and what cuts through most.

Hope you figure this out!

-jb

[billfitzmaurice]

The part that I'm not getting is the "cones are moving like crazy" part. That would seem to eliminate driver issues as the cause of the problem; if they're moving like crazy, they should be pushing a hell of a lot of air.

+1. If they're moving so much they should be loud, unless something is canceling out the sound they're creating. First make sure the two together are louder than either alone, not softer. If softer there's a polarity problem.

Originally Posted by Destructobot

I find it hard to believe I need an 8x10 to keep up with one guitar amp in my friend's basement.

If it's not the rig then it may be the room.
http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/CancellationMode.htm

[Stumbo]

Are you sure you're not going deaf? 1600 watts and you can't hear the bass? mmmmm.....

Do you have a db meter? Measure the db's from your rig and see how it goes.

How about the guitar player turning down the bass on his rig. Or, how about you setting your rig to where it sounds good and have your guitar wizard turn up just enough so that you can get a nice, balanced sound with his rig? Why does he have to turn up so loud for rehearsal? Hope you wear earplugs.

What size room are you playing in? How about getting the cabs to ear level? If you play the bass rig by itself, it it distorted? Since you have the same problem with another amp, sounds like the cabs to me.

How about getting a couple of 6x10's and stacking them? or couple of bigger, more efficient BFM cabs? Or maybe two of the fEarful/LDS 1x15/1x6.5 cabs stacked on two 1x15 cabs? Seems like the 2x12 and the 2x10 aren't moving enough air for you to get the volume you need.

Keep us posted.

[dmusic148]

I still think, as I said in your first thread, that your cabs are out of phase with each other. That Carvin head will kill cattle at 100 yards.
Did you do the 9V battery test?

[coreyfyfe]

Originally Posted by Stumbo

Are you sure you're not going deaf? 1600 watts and you can't hear the bass? mmmmm.....

The head's going into protect trying to keep these speakers moving, that's the big red flag for me.

What impedance are the cabs? Are you sure? Is the wiring all on the up and up? Are you using proper speaker cables?

[SwamiRob]

With that setup regardless of how deaf or bat eared he may be he should be able to feel a hell of alot, like he said this guitar amp is completely owning him and he can hear that contrast pretty well it would seem.

I'm intrigued by the excursion thing though, there's a fairly small ported 1x15 that the bassist in my hardcore band uses that moves to an uncomfortable looking cartoony kinda degree (while still sounding pretty clean which I can only assume means it must be running fine somehow). But even given that it's probably running at a good 3mm excursion at least, even when it's being run with a horrible little 100W Leem PA head on a fairly moderate volume, it's not even really that loud given how hard it looks to be working, could there be an issue with the low end coming out of the porting working against what the driver is putting out?

[projectMalamute]

Bad cabling?

[rbonner]

I didn't really get into it until after I passed 4 SVT fridges and heads... Bass doesn't work like a full Marshall 100 watt stack. BUT still my neighbor the music critic from a block away was bitching with just 1 SVT setup... I don't know what he was complaining about, he recognized the song I was playing.

1. Make sure the cabs are in PHASE.
2. 4 Speakers make BASS but are not loud in a house sized enviroment. It takes 48 speakers to be loud, trust me.
3. The louder you get the weaker the music, thats your hearing dimming out...

You need to be in a room of about 5000 square feet to really hear how loud you are.

Seriously you have a phasing issue on the cabs.

Have Fun, doesn't sound like you are having fun yet. BOB

[M0ses]

I may be going out on a limb here, but what kind of impedence are we looking at here? You didn't mention the word in the OP. But the only reason I can think of for your head to be going into protect mode without even clipping would be that your impedence is too low. And this would in fact be a huge problem and explain everything you're complaining about. You're using two cabs. If both of these cabs are 4 ohms, that means you're running them at 2 ohms. Which is almost always BAD for your amp. The Carvin you're using I believe can handle 2 but not when bridged.

[adamrobertt]

Gotta be an impedence or phase issue. I'm laughing at the people saying "sometimes a 4x10 isn't enough." I think that's a load of crap, I gig with a 4x10 all the time (with a 250 watt amp for that matter) and I've never had to turn up past 5.