10" DIY Options - Super10 or Punt?

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by WillInDenver, Dec 6, 2013.


  1. WillInDenver

    WillInDenver An ounce of perception, a pound of obscure. Supporting Member

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    I have a late 90s vintage Carvin ProBass 100 combo. It's a single 10" combo and it sounded like crap the day I got it. Now, the amp pots are so dirty and noisy that it's totally unusable.

    But I never used it much to begin with, so the box itself is in outstanding shape, and the amp section neatly unscrews and pulls out, leaving a nice little carpeted-covered shelf where I can set my GK MB Fusion head.

    So I was thinking about making a better cab out of it as a project, and am looking for opinions. I don't think any of this will be economical, just fun. The cabinet is about 14"x12"x12". Here are the 3 options I'm looking at:

    • Stick an Eminence 3010LF in there to try to create a "Super10." It looks like there might be enough room for me to snug in a 2" midrange driver on the front. Both speakers plus the crossover would be about $300 in parts, so I'd like to be sure this isn't a totally stupid idea before I consider it.
    • Put in one of the Eminence 10" drivers that has a "wizzer" style design, which would remove the need for a midrange driver. But those 10" drivers are relatively normal products, and the result would be a nicer, but still mortal 10" cabinet good for the basement and occasional coffee shop and little else. About $75 for the driver.
    • Leave the 10" Carvin driver in there and drive it with the MB Fusion. I've tried this already, of course - the speaker is in fine shape and it sounds a ton better than the OEM Carvin amp did, but this option is no fun.

    What would you guys do?
     
  2. Woodstockz

    Woodstockz

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    Eminence S2010 Basslite. Run it through WinISD with your box dimensions. Also look at Deltalite S2510

    Just a guess, but the box might be too small for an LF.
     
  3. bgavin

    bgavin Supporting Member

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    The S2010 performs very well in 1.0 cubic feet net volume.

    The 2510-II requires quite a bit more internal volume to reach its full (lower) potential.
    Running 2510 in a too-small box will give you a big hump around 100 Hz, which may/may not be desirable.
     
  4. WillInDenver

    WillInDenver An ounce of perception, a pound of obscure. Supporting Member

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    Thanks, guys. Do you think I should mess with a crossover and a small midrange, or just drop in the S2010 first and see what I think?
     
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  6. pie_man_25

    pie_man_25

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    you should be fine with just the s2010, it doesn't cut off too early, and it's a 10" speaker, so it shouldn't have much by way of dispersion issues in the mids, you could add a tweeter to cover the treble regions a little better if you feel it's lacking in that regard, but unless you're slapping a lot, it should be fine without that.
     
  7. 1n3

    1n3

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    Good comments here.

    That amp (350w into 8 ohms) can blow most 10" speakers. If the stock speaker gets loud enough and sounds good to you, I'd use that.

    I don't think the 3010LF is a good option because it isn't a good full-range speaker, and I doubt you have room for a mid, or at least, not enough room for a good one. Also, crossover design is non-trivial.

    There might be a "Super 10" out there that could take the full power of that amp, and sound good doing it, but I don't know what it would be. Maybe someone will have a suggestion. It might help if you could be more specific about your cabinet interior volume and port.
     
  8. pie_man_25

    pie_man_25

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    this is also a good point, sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good
     
  9. WillInDenver

    WillInDenver An ounce of perception, a pound of obscure. Supporting Member

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    True enough. I doubt, though, that I will ever run this rig loud - I have other solutions when I need volume. What I'd like here is a little guy that would sound good for upright (EUB) amplification and maybe the occasional choral music backup or jazz gig.

    I'm sure the OEM speaker is a 10" Carvin bass driver, I pulled it out to look and it has no labeling. Again, it doesn't sound terrible as it is, but I may put a 2010 in there to see how much better it sounds. If I promptly blow that speaker, maybe I found my limit experimenting for less than $100.
     
  10. bgavin

    bgavin Supporting Member

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    S2010 isn't good for more than 25w or so, over the bass operating range.
    If you run it above 100 Hz as a top box, it will take full juice.
     
  11. tjh

    tjh Supporting Member

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    Not familiar with that amp, is it a sealed or ported cab?
     
  12. WillInDenver

    WillInDenver An ounce of perception, a pound of obscure. Supporting Member

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    It's ported.
     
  13. 1n3

    1n3

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    How do you get that number? If I plug the S2010 and 2510 into a 1.2cf box tuned to 50hz (WAG), both drivers appear to be excursion-limited to roughly 60w at 41hz. Of course, the fundamental of an electric bass probably won't be more than 50% of the signal, so it's more like 120-150w. If the box is smaller, or the tuning lower, the numbers go up a bit.
     
  14. Woodstockz

    Woodstockz

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    Bill Fitzmaurice said that they both fart out at about 80 Watts.
     
  15. bgavin

    bgavin Supporting Member

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    I never stand between a man and his beliefs.
    http://www.bgavinsound.com/externals/FFT_DP146_4secs.jpg

    The above measured response of my MIM-P does not meet your preconceived expectations.
    Therefore, you don't have to worry about the fundamental over-excursing the driver.

    As to 25 watts, you can run WinISD the same as the rest of us.
    The operating range is 41 Hz for a 4-string.
    Using the S2010 published parameters, and a Flat alignment, it exceeds Xmax at 25 watts.
     
  16. lowphatbass

    lowphatbass ****

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    Can you stuff a 12" driver in there?
     
  17. asad137

    asad137 Supporting Member

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    Looks like it exactly matches his preconceived expectation. The fundamental and first overtone have pretty much the same power. If those were the only two components of the signal (and that looks to be pretty true as a close approximation, as the 2nd overtone is maybe 15dB down from either of those two), that makes the fundamental have 50% of the total power in the signal.
     
  18. 1n3

    1n3

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    With so many variables at play, you can produce a wide range of numbers for excursion limits. I gave specific numbers to make it clear (hopefully) how I got my excursion limit number. So I don't get the "belief" crack.

    OP said 'The cabinet is about 14"x12"x12"'. That's about 1.2cf. He didn't say if that was interior or exterior, but I took it as interior for my example. I picked 50hz as an average or likely cab tuning frequency, and 50% as a reasonable ratio for fundamental to signal. Your figure supports that, as asad137 noted. I also assumed a standard 4 string tuning, of course; that makes a big difference.


    Without more specific information, I'll assume "a flat alignment" means quasi-butterworth. That gives me a 2.25cf box tuned to 48.7hz. For a 41hz sine wave, I get about 35w to xmax; I'd call that about a 70w excursion limit for EB. But that's a much larger box than the OP mentioned. And since he seems to have left the conversation, I think I'll follow his lead.
     
  19. bgavin

    bgavin Supporting Member

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    My point for S2010 is 4mm excursion is exceeded at 41 Hz with an input signal of 25w.
    Link to S2010 Excursion Chart

    So many here on TB debate endlessly the strength of the fundamental and its importance.
    This point is argued with religious fervor.

    My concern is how much signal does it take to over-excurse.
    I am not concerned with how much fundamental is present in a composite signal or pink noise.

    I gave you the net box volume and tuning for a Flat (Butterworth) alignment for the S2010.
    It is 0.93 cuft. You are quoting for the 2510-II, which is 2.12 cubic feet at 50.9 Hz.
    These are calculated directly from the standard T/S formulas.
     
  20. funnyfingers

    funnyfingers

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    I have 2 S2010's in my Rumble 350 combo. I can turn it on full with my bass and also full with the auxillary inputs from my phone or my computer playing Tom Sawyer with the heavy hitting drums without a problem.

    I never have to go above 4, though.
     
  21. 1n3

    1n3

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    Yeah, I was looking at the DL 2510-II. Both the 2510 and the S2010 have been discussed here, but since you were talking about the S2010, I was on the wrong page in my reply.

    No "religious fervor" over harmonic content here, nor do I want to debate endlessly. I just prefer something more representative of a bass guitar signal than a sine wave. Doubling the sine wave number is a somewhat crude simplification, but it's more realistic, I think.

    Thanks for the S2010 excursion chart. Using your numbers (.93cf, 60hz), I get a sine wave limit of about 29W at 41hz for the S2010. That tuning seems high to me. because it unloads too early. But I think I'm closer to understanding where your 25W number comes from.
     

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