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12" Speakers for Sealed Cabs Showdown - Emi vs Fane

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by astack, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    I nearly posted this as yet another OT post in http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/fane-sovereign-10-125-sealed-driver-900277/, but thought it'd do for it's own thread. :p

    I REALLY like the form factor of vertical 2x12's (or the thought of a 3x12 :cool:) and I've been checking out potential 12" speakers for sealed cabs. Everyone talks about the Emi DL2512 II and S2012, which do look very good in many respects and get a lot love for good reason. Faital doesn't really have a contender in this category, that I've found. Most other makers are after the high-performance market using ported designs. (I may have missed some though.)

    That Sovereign thread, however, got me thinking about the 12's in the Fane Sovereign line. These two jumped out to me:
    Sovereign 12-200*: http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/FANE-INTERNATIONAL-SOVEREIGN-12-200-/55-2830
    Sovereign 12-500LF: http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/FANE-INTERNATIONAL-SOVEREIGN-12-500LF-/55-2845

    Here's a comparison chart of the four. As you can see, I only looked at the Fane's that matched the "SVT alignment" (Qts = ~.94 with f3 @ 80Hz and ~1dB bump @ 150Hz,). There are others that work well in sealed, but they were scratched from my list because they go deeper / require a huge box / etc. and I'm assuming "sealed" draws in the trad SVT crowd and they're looking for that same tight but full bottom.

    Sealed 12" Speaker Comparison
    [​IMG]
    Best in spec got bolded.

    [​IMG]

    Really, not a bad one in the bunch, for any spec, at least on paper. There aren't many speakers that do sealed boxes these days, but it's good to know that there are a few out there that do it well. All are 8 ohm, btw. (Unfortunately, the 16 ohm Eminence Delta12-B's are too tight IMO. That would have made for a killer sealed 4 ohm 4x12. YMMV)

    The Eminence models are neo compared to the ferrite Fanes. For a 2x12, 22# for 2x500LF vs. 8# for 2xS2012. Percentage wise a ton, but it's still only an additional 14# in a nice compact package. At ~12 sf of panel area and ~1.5#/sf (my approx. for 1/2" BB ply) the box weight is ~18#. Add 5# for all the misc and a 2xS2012 would be around 30# and a 2x500LF would be 44# (about the weight of my 2x12 Portabass, incidentally). Composite would be about 5# less. All just made up ballpark estimates.

    Plus with enough power (i.e. with a 400-500W SS head), the 500LF's max low end SPL is equivalent to almost 4 S2012's or 2 of any of the others. I think that makes up for the weight. :smug:

    The lower sensitivity and higher power handling of the 500LF would make for a nice match with an SVT I'd guess. With a low powered tube head, any of the others would be better. I'm a little concerned about the S2012's excursion limited power being higher or equal to the thermal limit through most of it's range. No real warning before meltdown. :eek: I haven't heard that happening to anyone on here, so maybe I'm off base.

    All have EBP's that are toward the sealed side of the scale, but not far enough that they couldn't be used in ported cabs, too, if you get bored and want to swap the box. One could also use a larger box like 1.5 or 2 cf for a smoother low end and a bit deeper f3. Again, the smaller box was selected only because they happened to lay over the SVT.

    The freq charts look favorable for all. Nothing too funky in terms of dips and spikes, IMO. Getting up to that 4-5kHz+ range is big for me, too, so that removed a lot of the Eminence drivers from my list. YMMV.

    Again four are solid choices as far as I can tell from the numbers. The Fane's lack the track record here on TB, but might be worth checking out.

    Did I overlook any other contenders in this niche, TB? Any qualifiers to add to my hack analysis?
  2. rpsands

    rpsands

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    I think you might be missing something in the power handling of the 500LF vs. the S2012/Deltalite. You're looking at transfer function it looks like, which is useful for showing the affects of a box at normalized spl.

    You need to use the Signal tab and put some power in there, look at the SPL and Excursion tabs.

    The Xmax of the 500LF isn't enough higher to translate to 4x as much low end as an S2012.

    * also, remember how bass signals work. Lots of peaks, not much sustained signal, unless you're using heavy compression. That means thermal and excursion being similar is fine for most players. I don't worry about thermal power handling unless there's something ridiculous (like 50w thermal with a 10mm xmax or something).
  3. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    Hmm, that's a very good point. It is a surprising amount given the similarity in Vd. I just double checked my data and made sure I'm only modeling 1 driver. All good there. I guess it may be a weird WinISD error?

    And to be clear, I meant 4x as many speakers and not 4x "moar bass." :) The 4x came from the ~5dB difference, which I rounded up to 6dB and figured two doublings to get that. It's really like 3.5x as many speakers or something, but that's tricky unless you're Willy Wonka. :p I'm pretty sure I did all that correct. Hmm, in reality, with a SS head, you'd get that 6dB going from a single 500LF and a pair of S2012's, which is worth noting, too.

    My max SPL was coming from the correct graph in WinISD. And as a check, like you said, I figured out the Pex from the excursion chart, plugged that into the signal and looked at the SPL chart. I've figured out that I can skip that multi-step method with ported designs and just take what the max SPL chart gives me as taking that into account, but wasn't sure with sealed cabs. It does work out to be the same with sealed cabs as well, I found out today, FYI for anyone wondering.

    Here's the max SPL:
    [​IMG]

    Otherwise, do you think I'm overlooking something? I have a simplistic linear model of max SPL in my head (for when I don't have WinISD open) that goes like:
    Max SPL = SPL W/m + 3*log(ff*Vd,2), where ff is some fudge factor like 1/2.
    In other words, there are two components or methods to getting a high max SPL: start with a higher sensitivity or provide more area*displacement. I know this especially isn't realistic when you're getting to the limits of the driver. Of course, it also doesn't account for the difference.

    So, to the extent of my knowledge (big caveat there!), I did all the math and modeling correctly, but it may still be something going on in the Black Box that is WinISD?
  4. rpsands

    rpsands

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    I think I see where the problem is. In your chart you're listing the broadband sensitivity figures provided by the manufacturers it looks like.

    I find that the calculated sensitivity numbers are a lot more reasonable to work with. For the S2012, I get 94.95db and I'm wondering if the Fane comes out different. Can you click "parameters" and see what the calculated sensitivity figure of the Fane is?

    Even with 94.95 db for the S2012, if the Fane is 93db, it should be 1db louder with ~twice the input, not 4db louder.

    There might also be something goofy with the impedance. Or there could be something about sealed cabs I just don't know :)
  5. JGR

    JGR The "G" is for Gustav Supporting Member

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    I love 12s and agree a 3x12 would be a great form factor - had been considering something similar myself, but I haven't really found a 12 (sealed or ported) that is really worth doing something with. Still love the NV412 though.
  6. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    I listed both, since they're somewhat useful for different reasons. I did have an error in my table with the calc'd sensitivity of the 500LF: [del]93.0[/del] 94.0. Below is the corrected version:

    [​IMG]

    But I think I might have an idea now: Because the excursion is so high relative to the thermal power of the Basslite, the max SPL limiting factor is no longer Vd -- it's the thermal power. So even though the Vd's are well matched, the S2012 will melt before it farts. Makes sense to me. Again, with low powered heads, pretty similar, but for the max output using excess power, the 500LF will melt later.

    [​IMG]

    JGR, 12's are a weird tweener size in terms of what's available. Plenty of serious drivers out there, but mostly serious for PA/sub use. The inherent efficiencies and range of available 15's makes them beat out most 12's (like your 15/8 cab or my 15PR400 cab). And then lots of 10's, too, for bass, but if you want a big cab, that means side-by-side drivers, violating what seems to be the #2 amp forum no-no rule. Was hoping to get some other options here :D I'd be really interested to see a spec sheet on the NV412 for comparison.
  7. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

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    I just checked the Sovereign 12-500LF in WinISD and it looks good for sealed cab use. Heavier than the others but able to take a lot more power and dish out higher SPL. Also a great price. The killer for this is it's only available in 8 ohms. A 16 ohm version would make it ideal for use in a 5.3 ohm vertical 312 sealed cab.
  8. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    P/S wiring, yeah? AFAIK, that works out for the same power distribution when considering current and potential and gives you the 5.3 ohms. Or do a crossed-over 3x12 like Kringle was thinking about.

    http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/sealed-3x12-idea-913373/

    Hmm, if the P/S 3x500LF would work, I think it'd be great to have a 2x12 + 1x12 for modularity and use a switch or box to wire them in series as needed.

    In terms of box size, it'd be tricky to get them down to 1 cf without being tipsy. Might think about building to the 1.5 or 2 cf mark and then add foam blocks to shrink as needed. It's a waste of size weight, but still around the 50# mark, making it more than competitive for a cab of it's capabilities. Slanted baffle would help, inset handles, head box or anything else that eats into your volume.

    Speaking of comparison, I put in an 8x10 using the CTS specs and compared max SPL to 3x12's with these four drivers.
    S2012 x3: 127dB
    200 x3: 128dB
    DL x3: 129dB
    CTS 8x10: 130dB
    500LF x3: 131dB

    All at 1/3 the weight and 1/2 the box size. Niiice
  9. rpsands

    rpsands

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    Ok, that makes a lot more sense. :)
  10. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

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    I can see adjusting the footprint so it's not too tippy. A 4 ohm 212 and 8 ohm 112 would be nice for modularity but a 312 with inset top handle, skateboard wheel castors, and skid rails would be a good single cab solution. One way to wire this might be to connect the three 8 ohm twelves in parallel (2.67 ohms) and incorporate a 1.33 ohm pad resistor bank (six 50 watt 8 ohm resistors) in series with a SPDT switch. This would allow the cab to be run as a 2.67 ohm load for 2-ohm stable amps and as a 4 ohm load for amps rated 4 ohm minimum (900 watt max). The pad resistors would need a heat sink to dissipate 1/3 of the amp output which is not ideal but allows 4 ohm operation. The GB Streamliner 900 is one amp that would sound good with a sealed 312 and provide 600 watts to the speakers. Something like a Mesa Walkabout or many of the tube amps could just run at 2.67 ohms.
  11. rpsands

    rpsands

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    I'd just sack up and make it a 4x12 ;) .5 alignment, or 90 degree, or bipolar maybe. not sure if there are issues doing weird layouts like that with a sealed box though.
  12. JGR

    JGR The "G" is for Gustav Supporting Member

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    Yup, agree and its a bummer cause 12's have a nice form factor in many regards - vertical 10's are too tippy, and 3x15 is just... big. The NV412 does pretty well in terms of packaging and dispersion with the staggered driver arrangement. Seems like a good compromise. I wish there was a better selection of 12's to choose from.
  13. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

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    I think the Berg NV412 already has the optimum (staggered) layout and tone for a sealed 412 cab. It might be interesting to try a switchable .5 alignment for a different voicing and see if there are ways to reduce weight without sacrificing tone. Can't think of anything else I'd try on that...
  14. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    Just quickly ran through all the non-Eminence 12's on US Speaker. Only found two more that work in sealed (EBP < 100), both from Beyma, and both pricey. At work and can't run WinISD, but for some weird reason I memorized the sealed box equations last night (I think I got 'em right).

    12B100/R @ $220 - EBP = 93. This one I *think* hits the 80Hz f3 with .94 alignment in a .7 cf box.
    http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma 12B100R-1.htm

    12BR70 @ $125 - EBP = 79. This one I *think* will be around 65Hz f3 with Q = .94 in a 1.5 cf box.
    http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma 12BR70-1.htm
  15. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    Yeah, an all-in-one is sweet, too. :D Maybe something like 14 x 16 x 38. Gives you 1.1 cf +/- per driver.

    I searched around last night, too, and again looks like for 3x systems a P/S wiring done right gives 5.3 ohms, which is close enough to 4 ohms for tube heads and fine for any SS head. The switch for P/S or all P would be good for those 2 ohm stable heads, but adding resistors to burn power seems like a waste when you can get *close enough.* Yeah?
  16. rpsands

    rpsands

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    I would try Bipolar or 90 degree angled before I'd use the staggered alignment myself. but I'm a goofy goon.
  17. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    Update: Just ran these in WinISD, I was right for the first, but pleasantly wrong on the second :D

    They actually both end up in basically the same place on the TF graph as the four I started with, so all 6 will sound the same in the low end at low volumes. But max SPL for both Beymas is a couple dB lower than the lowest of the four (S2012). So, both get cut from the running, IMO. They both work in smaller boxes (~2/3 cf), but getting a 12" speaker into a 1 cf box is tough enough, so I think they're beyond the point of benefit. That said, in a 1 cf box, they're flat if that's what you're going for.

    Interestingly, the 12BR70 with a 6.0mm Xmax, in a small box (Qtc > .8) will be thermally controlled down to 10Hz! So, it's the same thing that happens to the S2012.

    I also ran through all the 12" offerings on Parts Express. Found maybe half a dozen good for sealed boxes. Cut all but two from the running based on low Xmax or low high end range. The two left standing modeled poorly and/or required a huge box.

    The search continues.
  18. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    More spam, because I can't sleep after the pathetic finish by the Cards. :bag::rollno:

    Here's the 5.33 ohm wiring for a 3x12:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    http://colomar.com/cgi-bin/h_impedance_proc?8Z8ZxZxZ8ZxZxZxZxZxZxZxZxZxZxZx


    Aaaand I just went through MCM's site. Nothing new from anyone other than the MCM house brand stuff, which the majority actually has an EBP < 100. But other things knocked all but 4 out. Modeled those, and two were OK. Here are highlights:

    MCM-AUDIO-SELECT-55-3233:
    http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/MCM-AUDIO-SELECT-55-3233-/55-3233
    $14
    4 ohm
    94 dB W/m calc'd
    116 dB max SPL
    f3 = 74 Hz @ Qtc = .94

    MCM-AUDIO-SELECT-55-2973:
    http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/MCM-AUDIO-SELECT-55-2973-/55-2973
    $14
    5 lbs
    94 dB W/m calc'd
    116 dB max SPL
    f3 = 70 Hz @ Qtc = .94

    Better max SPL than the Beymas actually. I think the big but here is that they both have rubber surrounds and still don't beat out the original four speakers. What they do offer is dirt cheap price and a good value. And the one comes in 4 ohms and is the only non-8 ohm contender in the bunch. If you tried, you could make a ~$100 4x12 @ 4 ohm, 500W, 100 dB W/m and 128 dB max. :eek::eek:

    Hmm, any other sites out there to dredge through? I have a hard time imagining I haven't looked at 99% of what's available with these 3 sites, though. Maybe I'll revisit some Eminence speakers...
  19. Arjank

    Arjank

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    You can't wire them like that....
    Put the three of them parallel and get a head/poweramp that can handle 3ohms with ease....
  20. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    Why's that? :confused:

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