2 Parallel Signals Question

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by MSGNoff, Feb 28, 2014.


  1. MSGNoff

    MSGNoff 1SG Supporting Member

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    I replied to another thread hoping to gain advice on splitting a signal (2 parallels)......... Not certain I understand how to get the blended signal back to my cabinet to use it as a stage monitor?

    Here’s what I have in mind; bass –to- Bigshot ABY switcher –to- one signal to a Sansamp Paradriver then to the bass amp (MB SD800) via bass amp DI to FOH/board.

    The other (dry) signal straight from the ABY to the FOH/board. Bottom line, 2 parallel signals to FOH; 1 dirty and 1 clean. This is the easy part.

    The portion I need assistance with is how to get that blended signal to my cabinet (hopefully a 12/6 fEARful very soon)? Furthermore, how do I control the volume of the blended signal of the cabinet on stage? Another poweramp required?

    OR, am I missing the obvious?

    Thanks in advance.
    -Dave
     
  2. bongomania

    bongomania Gold Supporting Member

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    Use a standard DI box to send the clean signal to PA channel 1; the thru jack of the DI goes to a blender pedal like the Boss LS2 or Xotic X-blender. Sansamp goes in the blender's loop. DI out from Sansamp goes to PA chan 2. The blender's output goes to the bass amp. Amp goes to the one speaker.

    Benefit of the Xotic over the Boss is the ability to flip the phase of the loop signal in order to reduce the loss of low end that can sometimes result from phase cancellation.
     
  3. MSGNoff

    MSGNoff 1SG Supporting Member

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    What your describing was my first guess on how to do this, however I love the tone both the Sansamp and SD800 produce. So, running the signal from the SD800 to the speaker will only capture the dirty signal chain. Hell, maybe that's all I get on stage.

    Additionally, we have our own PA system and sound dude so I never have to worry about the FOH mix.

    Looks like the Bigshot A/B Y is along the same lines as the Xotic and Boss you mentioned.
     
  4. bongomania

    bongomania Gold Supporting Member

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    Actually, no the ABY is not a blender; a blender mixes the clean and dirty signals to your taste. That's why what I described does exactly what you asked for. :)

    Unless you just really want two amps and two speaker cabs onstage, in which case you'd use a Y splitter between them and only give one amp the dirt effects.
     
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  6. MSGNoff

    MSGNoff 1SG Supporting Member

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    Makes a little more sense now. Why does such an easy idea turn complicated :crying:

    I read something on using a small 4 channel mixer somewhere in the chain can get the trick done!?!?!?
     
  7. Downunderwonder

    Downunderwonder

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    What I do is very different but same ends, big full lows, big effects. I split with a Rolls mini crossover, highs and lows. Lows go straight through and highs go through effects. Blender puts it back to one signal, I use a Wounded Paw with phase invert controls and the spare serial channel dedicated to phase correction. You could also use 2 simple blenders, one with phase.

    If you carry on with your multi amp plan, beware misphase generated in effects. Each gainstage flips phase 180 degrees.

    I can tell you, the clean full range blend has nothing on the crossover blend for clear and punching bass with effects.
     
  8. bongomania

    bongomania Gold Supporting Member

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    You need to split the signal, then recombine the two paths. A blender pedal does both. A mixer just does the recombining; none of those mini mixers has a phase switch.

    Fwiw I like the crossover approach too.
     
  9. Downunderwonder

    Downunderwonder

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    For the life of me, I cannot fathom why I am the single TB'er using this method. I am plugging it at regular opportunities for this single confirmation I am not some loon! It totally rocks and costs less than a single boutique pedal :confused:

    There are a few more pedals popping up that employ their own highpass to save the bass. My setup lets any pedal be flogged without losing the low end.
     
  10. edpal

    edpal Banned

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    I got a Rolls SX-21 for this purpose, results have been less than stellar as there is bleed between the high & low outputs. Maybe my unit is just trash,bought it used. Frustrating, I really need this as I am in a loud 3 piece (guitar,bass,drums) and I need to cover a LOT of sonic area. Am in process of getting a SFX X&M unit, has built in blender with phase correction.

    I notice most of the crossover pedals are analog, seems like a digital solution with a high sampling rate would be cleaner.
     
  11. tech21nyc

    tech21nyc

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    Maybe I'm missing something but why not just use the blend function on the Para Driver to mix in your direct signal? From what I understand, Mark Bass amp's are designed to be really clean so it's not like you are mixing the pedal distortion (if that's how you are using it) with amp distortion.
     
  12. bongomania

    bongomania Gold Supporting Member

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  13. MSGNoff

    MSGNoff 1SG Supporting Member

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    Update - hooked up the Xotic blender and a Radical Pro DI routing the Sansamp and signal as described above by Bongomania.

    The signal paths worked as described (thanks again Bongo!), however it sounded like crap. I got a really compressed sound from the dry signal from the Radical DI straight to the board. I couldn't get a decent wet signal from the Sansamp using it as an effect instead of a preamp.

    The FOH system we have is pretty decent; Yamaha ? 32 channel board with QSC powered mains ($1200 each).

    I have no idea what to do now? Frustrating. Maybe hire a damn good sound guy/gal who can spend time with me, or trash the whole idea.
     
  14. bongomania

    bongomania Gold Supporting Member

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    First thing, did you also try what the Tech21 rep suggested a couple of posts up?

    As far as the sound sucking with the arrangement I described, my first suspicion is phase cancellation--so did you happen to try using the phase switch on the blender?

    I don't know why the Radial DI would have sounded compressed. It doesn't do that, unless maybe you sent it a very high line-level signal, like the line out of the Sansamp? Even that shouldn't really sound compressed, but it could.

    Did you try the DI by itself to the board with no other connections? Or Sansamp straight to the board?
     
  15. StuartV

    StuartV Out of GAS!! Supporting Member

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    Yeah, this is what I want to know, too.

    Bass --> Sansamp --> amplifier --> Speaker out to stage monitor + DI Out to FOH board

    Do the wet/dry blend using the Sansamp Blend control. Set the stage volume using the amp's volume control. Let the sound guy deal with FOH.

    What does that fail to achieve that you (OP) want?

    Edit: + what robd said.
     
  16. robd

    robd Supporting Member

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    Doesn't the Paradriver have a 2nd, uneffected output that you can use? The BDDI does

    plug bass into the paradriver - then....
    effected out to amp, then the amps di to FOH dirty (amps powered output goes to the fearful for stage monitoring)
    uneffected parallel output goes to FOH

    Then you have a clean and a dirty signal going to FOH, as in the OP...
     
  17. Passinwind

    Passinwind Charlie Escher Supporting Member

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    Both of my rack effect units have high pass filters built in, and I typically have post-effects EQ available as well. I still prefer using a separate amp and cab (or a stereo pair) for effects though -- but I'm way too lazy to haul all that around very often. ;)
     
  18. MSGNoff

    MSGNoff 1SG Supporting Member

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    I did play around with the Sansamp instead of the blender and DI. However by that time I was pretty frustrated and didn't spend much time trying to work it out. Also, I didn't clearly understand exactly what Tech21 was explaining. Willing to give it another shot.

    Yes, I used with the phase switch on the blender and it made a world of difference. It went from a completely crappy sound to a lousy sound :)

    I know this is not working out because I'm a knucklehead, not because of the equipment.
     
  19. edpal

    edpal Banned

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    Darn, I wish my Rolls unit would have worked as good as you tell. I had nothing but bleed between the highs & the lows. Wasn't able to achieve the effect I wanted, which is exactly what you describe.:crying:
     
  20. Downunderwonder

    Downunderwonder

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    OP needs to add the Rolls and another simple blender. Use the Xotic 100% effected with a jumper cable in its loop and phase flipped. Insert between the effects return and the other blender. This functions as your phase flipper.

    Bass > a buffering pedal, buffered signal > sx21
    Highs > effects > xotic > blender2
    Lows > blender2
    Blender output > other full range effects eg compression,...amp.
     
  21. MSGNoff

    MSGNoff 1SG Supporting Member

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    Gave the Xotic blender another shot last night….WOW!!!! Not certain what was wrong last week when I first tried it, but last night was awesome.

    I tried the Sansamp routing first as suggested by Tech21 and StuartV and it sounded linear, or thin. Tore everything apart and went back to the original signal paths as suggested by Bongomania by way of the blender. This method nailed it 100%.

    FWIW; the phase switch on the blender works amazing well. The signal sounded pretty damn good when I first plugged in last night. Dialed in the tone I wanted, sounded even better. Then I flipped the phase switch and holy crap! Night and day difference.

    Thanks again for those of you who spent time walking me thru this process.
     

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