1. Welcome to TalkBass, the Premier Bass Player Community and Information Source. We've been uniting the Low End Since 1998!

    We're glad you've found us. Register a 100% Free Account to post and unlock tons of features.

Art & Conflicts

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by Ziltoid, Dec 11, 2012.


  1. Ziltoid

    Ziltoid Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    I was just curious to see what's your take on art that "causes conflict" or "shock art". Now this sounds very vague so here are a few examples and two categories:

    Shock-art cases:
    Mapplethorpe's G-S&M (that I won't link here)
    R. Mutt's (M. Duchamp) urinal:
    [​IMG]
    Immersion (often called PissChrist, that I won't link here)

    Now those are more "extreme cases" (Yes, I'm aware there's more shocking stuff out here). Those are clearly pieces meant to shock or to defy.


    Now the second category I could call "art that becomes conflict"
    Richard Serra's tilted wall:
    [​IMG]
    The artist lost in this case, the wall was removed.
    Buren's Colones:
    [​IMG]
    In this case the artist won.


    Now this may seem random, but I'm just trying to gather thoughts on art and the conflict surrounding it. I thought a few examples divided into two kinds of polemics could help. Street art also comes to my mind when we mention the whole conflictual art theme.

    So yeah, basically what's your take on avant-garde, shock-art, cultural conflicts surrounding certain art pieces, etc.

    :hyper:
     
  2. bongomania

    bongomania Gold Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    PDX, OR
    Disclosures:
    owner, OVNIFX and OVNILabs
    My guiding light: Does it inspire the viewer to think or feel something more beyond just shocked or bothered? Or does the shock/bother achieve an important sociopolitical goal? If yes to either of those, then I'm a huge fan and supporter. If "no" though, I write the art off as childish attention-seeking unworthy of adult consideration.
     
  3. DwaynieAD

    DwaynieAD Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2010
    Location:
    Mechanicsburg, PA
  4. dozicusmaximus

    dozicusmaximus Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Location:
    Austin, TX
  5. Register to disable this ad
  6. Ziltoid

    Ziltoid Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    That's kind of hard to judge, isn't it? Meaning comes from the individuals' perspectives.

    But what's awesome by your standards can be another guy's trash. Again, perspectives. The link you posted as some pretty modern art, plenty of "critical theory" adept would frown upon it.

    It definitely can be! I'd even say that the mere fact it defies the authorities calls for a reaction and/or marks the opposition to the system.
     
  7. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Terrific Twister Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2001
    Media:
    13
    Albums:
    1
    Location:
    Lacey, WA
    If it offends or shocks someone, stop looking at it. Acknowledge and move on. It's like those people who take a sniff of air, ask if someone farted, then take a big whiff and say "OK, who farted because this stinks?".

    -Mike
     
  8. Ziltoid

    Ziltoid Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    But then, there's extremes and the grey zone in the middle. Without being a "shocker" or something that can offend, there can certainly be big disagreements over pieces like Malevich's:

    [​IMG]

    Some say it's trash, others pure genius.

    There's definitely a debate between what's sacred and profane in the art world, especially when it comes to the avant-garde.
     
  9. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Terrific Twister Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2001
    Media:
    13
    Albums:
    1
    Location:
    Lacey, WA
    Conflict over that? Really? Some people really dig these days for stuff to argue about or be offended over.

    -Mikei
     
  10. Ziltoid

    Ziltoid Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    It raises questions.

    But from a theoric standpoint, is conflict a bad thing? Say form Arendt's perspective, the conflict is necessary for culture to happen.
     
  11. LiquidMidnight

    LiquidMidnight

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2000
    This.

    I admire provocative art, but if it's shock just for the sake of sock, then it comes off as highly pretentious to me.

    A lot of "modern art" falls into that pretentious category, IMO. Many of the people working in the modern art idiom are really just rehashing what the Dada artists have already done - except Dada art was actually informed by a rather profound philosophy: That a human race that would have committed the atrocities of the first World War didn't deserve to live in a world with beautiful art. Modern art has always come off more like, "Let's see what crazy crapy I can stick together and then try and impose some pretentious meaning to it."
     
  12. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Terrific Twister Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2001
    Media:
    13
    Albums:
    1
    Location:
    Lacey, WA
    I see no harm in conflict so long as both parties involved are mature enough to work through it. For example, the wife and I have been in conflict a few times over the 16 years we've been married. We always find an amicable solution. Heck, I've had conflicts here since I joined 10 years ago. Sometimes I dealt with it properly, other times I did not and made the conflict worse.

    So anyways....is that paper picture art to you? It's not to me.

    -Mike
     
  13. Ziltoid

    Ziltoid Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    Conflict in art and culture is a pretty big field of studies. Be it the relations between critics and artists; local, global, and glocal; massmedias and popular culture versus high culture; the role of art in social movements, in politics; cyberculture; cultural omnivorousness and the ideas behind selection; the cultural and identical constructs; American Cultural wars; the critic approach versus the cultural one; and so on and on.

    Basically it ranges from Arendt's culture crisis up to very actual authors. It's a busy field.

    And for Malevich's piece:

    It is to me, it's pretty much as far as you can go into minimalism, I think it's pretty neat somebody pushed the limit to its furthest(?) point.
     
  14. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Terrific Twister Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2001
    Media:
    13
    Albums:
    1
    Location:
    Lacey, WA
    I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation. I'm used to talking about coffee, wine gums, hockey, and football. This is beyond my intelligence level.

    -Mike
     
  15. Bloodhammer

    Bloodhammer Twinkle Twinkle Black Star

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Location:
    Shreveport, Louisiana
    How about Throbbing Gristle's music/stage performances/art?

    I like the first era stuff. Haven't really paid attention to anything they've done recently...
     
  16. Ziltoid

    Ziltoid Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    It's definitely not beyond your intelligence level. Academic('ish) discussions often have the Tower of Babel effect going on. Heck, if an engineer drops by and starts talking about Hydraulics fluids dynamics or something, I'll be lost. ;)
     
  17. Ziltoid

    Ziltoid Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    That's a good example, the beginnings of Industrial, right?

    Generally speaking types, trends, etc originate from the margins of society to then become central. Electronic Dance Music started in Detroit's warehouses and it is now everywhere.

    There's also so many subgenres, some American researcher did a paper on techno music subgenres, I don't remember how many there was but it was pretty crazy.

    Heck, there's even what they call "Glitch music"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKmgc1NYg4M

    I mentioned the example of techno music subgenres, but yeah... metal.
     
  18. Bloodhammer

    Bloodhammer Twinkle Twinkle Black Star

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Location:
    Shreveport, Louisiana
    See, now there's a good example of "found sound" in that link you posted. (I like it BTW :)) That has a lot more to do with industrial music than electronic dance music (like techno). Ever heard of Einst├╝rzende Neubauten? I used to have one of their early albums and one track was made by breaking glass and smashing things IIRC. They used televisions, metal pipes, and other stuff and recorded in warehouses and large culverts. It was strangely good. The feeling is that of living in an industrial wasteland.

    As far as metal goes, a lot of it is controversial for the sake of controversy, so I'm not really going to go into that so much.
     
  19. mpdd

    mpdd neoconceptualist Gold Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Location:
    LA
    it's a business, nothing more, nothing less, something shakes stuff up then everybody imitates it, and then that's the status quo, check out adorno
     
  20. Ziltoid

    Ziltoid Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Location:
    Canada
    Adorno is in the Frankfurt school of thoughts, critical approach. Critical approach nowadays opposed to the cultural approach. It's a point of view most do not agree with anymore.
     
  21. mpdd

    mpdd neoconceptualist Gold Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Location:
    LA
    he also wrote some interesting stuff about jazz music and people becoming more mechanical, i think i blocked out the cultural approach after grad school
     

Share This Page