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Cabinet(s) to handle it all

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by kneedriver, Feb 4, 2014.

  1. kneedriver

    kneedriver

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    Hi everybody.

    Wondering if I can pick your brain.
    I play guitar in a noise rock band. But I use baritone and bass on occasion for pieces too -- and octave stuff/loud volume/feedback.
    I started with a Music Man 210 65 combo. Loved it. Blew the speakers.
    I switched and got a Music Man 130 Reverb head so it could handle all I was throwing at it -- I love the MM tone.

    I initially paired the head with a 212 ported MM cabinet, but I was missing the brassy highs and walloping bass of the 10s in the combo. I tried the head with an Ampeg 1x15 bass cab I had. Sounded amazing, and could handle the lows, but it also dampered the guitar tones too. I was looking to maybe pair a smaller cab on top with 10s - like wide range 10s or guitar 10s? Or maybe go for a whole new larger cab altogether that can handle it all? I see guitarsists and bassists using these Emperor cabs now that look like they can handle armageddon, much less be built with odd speaker combinations (1x15 and 2x10 in the same cab, etc)...
    I want something that's not expressly built for bass (modern cabs also have tweeters which sound awful with guitar) but that is also more beefy than a standard guitar cab... Also 12s tend to sound very traditionlly "guitar-like" and I have noticed when I use 10s and 15s with guitar it really turns into a whole new thing.

    Help, what should I do?
  2. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

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    I would pass on those emperor cabs. Not a lick of engineering in them.

    For what you want, I would look at a proper 215 built around the Faital Pro 15PR400.
  3. kneedriver

    kneedriver

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    2x15 is something i was considering. i love the dick dale type of tone -- except with loads of fuzz and noise in front of it. those old Fender 2x15s that I have found though tend to be overpriced for the shape that they are usually in. Anyone ever use a repro of those style cabs?
  4. Scottkarch

    Scottkarch

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    I don't have anything to input... but I'm really curious what the music your playing sounds like. Any clips or vids online? I'd love to hear what youre doing. Thanks
  5. wcriley

    wcriley

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    Uncompensated endorsing user: fEARful
    Some people have reported good results using greenboy cabinets with both bass and skinny-string guitars.

    Keep in mind that, over time, sustained feedback at high volume levels can smoke even high end drivers.
  6. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

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    You need to realize that 15's dont have a sound, neither do 10's or 12's. Each cab design will sound different.

    The specific 15's I quoted have fairly good upper mid response, and very good low end response for a full range driver. Per old fener 215's, I would pass on outdated gear for what you are trying to do.
  7. Bmorefoozler

    Bmorefoozler

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    The old showman cabs were JBL equipped...

    Perhaps try a cabinet built for eminence commonwealths... I think they were intended to be modern copies of old school JBL's.
  8. kneedriver

    kneedriver

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    would it be a dumb idea to just get an used 4x12 Marshall type of cab and put two heavy duty 12s and two reg 12s? Or is that dumb? Trying to figure out a solution that is road worthy but doesn't cost $1000 either. I also thought about just getting an Orange 410 or Marshall 1965B 410 cab that would fit squarly atop my Ampeg 1x15. Running the Music Man head into both?

    The Music Man sounds so great, both as a guitar amp and a bass amp. I wish I had a cab situation I could say the same for.
  9. wcriley

    wcriley

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    It not a good idea to run low frequencies through dissimilar drivers that occupy the same internal air space.
  10. kneedriver

    kneedriver

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    @wcriley

    So does that mean that the Music Man head run through a separate bass cabinet and a separate guitar cabinet might do the trick?
  11. wcriley

    wcriley

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    Might.
    The only way to know whether the sound is like what you're after is to try it.
  12. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

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    Not for bass. you will blow the guitar speakers.
  13. Bass_Pounder

    Bass_Pounder

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    You will need a crossover to keep the low end from destroying the guitar speakers
  14. nick98338

    nick98338

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    Like the GOF#1 wrote... I'm getting good results with a Greenboy fEARful 12/6/1 cube cabinet. I use it for bass, and skinny string electric (Tele) and 6-string acoustic. All three instruments sound good. Did not cost $1000 dollars. Did cost $612 dollars.
  15. higain617

    higain617

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    Ampeg V4 2x15 cab. The old school stuff was often designed to pull double duty.
  16. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune Only immortal for a limited time Gold Supporting Member

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    A couple of years ago I built a prototype bass cab that combined a 12" guitar speaker with a beefy 15" woofer. The feedback I got from players who tried it was mixed. It sounded pretty good for solo bass, but didn't sit in the mix very well. In retrospect - duh. It was clashing with the guitars, fighting a losing battle for the same tonal slot.

    As a guitar cab, it was too big for what it delivered, and had too much bottom end, stepping on the bass player's toes.

    So that's one of the challenges of doing a dual-role cab: How to sit in the mix well in both roles. Having had a couple of years to ponder my failure, I now think I've figured it out, and have another prototype (using a different configuration) in the pipeline.

    An area where I'm weak is, understanding the sort of head amps that might be used on a dual-role cab. Kneedriver, is your Musicman happy with a four-ohm load?
  17. will33

    will33

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    @ Duke --

    I think your proto cab might find a following in power trio's, one guitar, bass and drums. Maybe not enough of a following to make financial sense but that's a whole 'nother deal. :)

    A lot of us like playing in trios. It allows us to "stretch out" a bit on bass, playing point/counterpoint, harmonies/counter-melodies, or just "filling more space"/ playing more stuff.

    Something weird happens though when the 1 guitarist takes a lead....it sounds "empty". With a tone that's set up to support the band rather than "drive" it....it doesn't matter how many notes we play, it still sounds empty. Part of that is due to not filling up sonic space. With the bass woofer/guitar driver combo, we can get that sonic space back/fill it up without the second guitar.

    Caveat: my band consists of one electric and one acoustic guitar. On "more rocky type stuff", the singer sets the acoustic down and we are essentially a 3-piece plus a singer.

    Caveat #2: if you build your ideas around my little band, you will surely end up in the poor house. :p
  18. seansv

    seansv

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    I think you should try out an old bandmaster 2x15 with good condition speakers. I played in a band with two guitarists with that exact MM amp and an old silverface bandmaster. The BMaster is a hell of a piece. Bass tone through it was very old school, but bari and guitar could go anywhere with it. Definitely wide enough range for big bottom (kinda loose) and scritchy highs if you need for noise. Like people will tell you here, 15s can be pretty bright depending on the design.

    I'd also avoid emperor because the premium you pay for their looks and name is a bit steep. Also wary of the "unscientific" speaker configurations but without trying one I can't say they'd be bad. Another thing to keep in mind is that in proper phase, mic'ing both the 15 and 10 on one of them probably rules, but that mostly happens in the studio. There are videos on youtube of them sounding great close mic'd on both speakers if you look around. Who knows what the blend really is.

    your question is going to get a lot of response skewed toward the usual two answers for bass amplification here: match drivers or get a properly designed full range system. I'd lean toward the former especially for guitar.

    EDIT: in the band mentioned above I just want to clarify that those amps were the guitarists' rigs. I tried them out with bass though. I used an old tube PA amp.
  19. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune Only immortal for a limited time Gold Supporting Member

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    If you're talking about the 12" guitar speaker + 15" woofer prototype, I've abandoned that format. It was neither fish nor fowl, so to speak, but it did show me what I was doing wrong.

    Off topic, by chance, did you write to my e-mail address back in December? I thought you did, but then couldn't find it, so not sure if I imagined it.

    So, are you saying that your guitarist could use a richer, fuller-sounding cab? If so, I have something in my garage that might be worth resurrecting so that he could give it a try. The main complaint from my beta testers was "too much low end", but this might be the place for something like that. It's not a bass cab, though.

    Ha! Well if that happens, would you guys sneak me in to one of your gigs so I don't have to pay the cover charge??

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