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Can I hear myself better onstage with a 4x10?

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by Blah114, Dec 16, 2013.


  1. Blah114

    Blah114 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    Today I have 2 Bergantino 12s.. one is an HT, the other an HD.. the HD is a better cabinet than the HT.. Eden WT550 or Ampeg SVT Pro 7 head..

    I am wondering if I should add a single 2x10 from Bergantino to hear myself better..

    or maybe a 4x10 altogether from SChroeder or Bergantino. My funds are not unlimited, but I can easily sell any Bergantino cabinet by spring (US spring).

    I am struggling with adding a 2x10 but wonder if anyone here pairs a 12 8 ohms cab with an 8 ohms 2x10.

    A 4 ohms 4x10 will be heavy and awkward to carry. I am not, onstage, getting the definition from 12s that I'd like. I even have my mids BOOSTED along with the VT's "character" boosted @ 2 o clock, with drive at 9 o clock. The audience generally hears a DI, so really the cabinets are just for me. I keep my volume a bit low, but even when increased, I can't hear my mids being so close to my cabinets.
     
  2. Mystic Michael

    Mystic Michael Hip No Ties

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Location:
    New York, NY
    I'm sure that many players routinely pair a 1x12 with a 2x10. That's doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.

    As for the 4x10 idea, frankly I don't get it. A 4x10, with it's relatively short, squat physical profile will certainly put your drivers even further away from your ears than they already are with your pair of 1x12s. Not to mention the issues with sound dispersion that are common to the 4x10 design - even if you are using it only for stage monitoring.

    Selling off a pair of Bergantinos for a Schroeder would, for me, most certainly be a step backward. I've never heard a Schroeder cab that I actually liked. YMMV... :meh:

    I don't know what the answer is for you. But I suspect it's not any of the proposed solutions you've just mentioned.

    MM
     
  3. gareth dunster

    gareth dunster

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    Dec 8, 2009
  4. Chef

    Chef Moderator Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2004
    Location:
    Columbia MO
    Disclosures:
    Staff Reviewer; Bass Gear Magazine
    Moving from a an Epi UL410 (great cab) to a pair of stacked 12's was a huge step forward in personal monitoring for me.
    Taller, closer to my ears, the "line array" throws better/cleaner into a room.

    I'd not go back to a 410, myself.
     
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  6. Blah114

    Blah114 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    Thanks for the feedback. I love the HD112 cabinet for certain and never will get rid of that. I had thought a 2x10 would introduce some mids and brightness "up close.." moreso than a 12.. I guess I'll have to research the dispersion, but I've always read the larger speakers are better heard from a further distance. Is this incorrect?

    I've heard a few Schroeder cabs and love them. I love Bergantinos as well. I'd love to try an Eden cabinet someday too, but cannot find them locally. (I can find Bergs locally, oddly!)
     
  7. Nashrakh

    Nashrakh

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2008
    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    Maybe, instead of the 4x10, go for two vertically stacked 2x10. This will bring the speakers up closer to your ears.
     
  8. kikstand454

    kikstand454 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2012
    Get an 8ohm 212 and set it on your one 12 for a 312 stack that will be closer to your ears. Added bonus: it'll be quite a bit louder.
    Do they make a 212 in the HD? If you love that cab.....more of the same wouldn't hurt. That's how I would do it. That way you have a very versatile rig: small (112) medium (212) and big (312), that's still fairly portable.
     
  9. Blah114

    Blah114 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    thanks everyone. I think the real issue is the HT112.. I need to replace it with something better.. I cannot afford another HD112.. I like the idea of an 8 ohms 2x12.. that would likely be thunderous.. I hesitate to get a 4 ohms cabinet unless it's an 8x10 or something crazy like an NV610 from Berg... I had THOUGHT 10s had better immediate sound dispersion..
     
  10. WillInDenver

    WillInDenver An ounce of perception, a pound of obscure. Supporting Member

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    Mar 9, 2005
    Location:
    Denver, nee Austin
    Yes, I've had an Avatar rig like that for many years, and it works very well. You could probably stack the 2x10 vertically atop the 12, which would help even more.

    Two 2x10 cabinets stacked vertically might be even better, but I also have a rig like that and I don't really notice a big difference in performance, academics aside.
     
  11. TonyP-

    TonyP- Excuse me but you have your I-IV-V in my II-V-I Gold Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Location:
    Boston Mass
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    I gig with both combos 2(112)s and a single 410 and can hear myself equally as well with each.

    However with that being said the 410 sounds fuller to me and prefer it over other combinations.

    That being said this 'TBs amp form' and the old standard of the 410 is a bit of martyr around here.
     
  12. Mystic Michael

    Mystic Michael Hip No Ties

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    Apr 1, 2004
    Location:
    New York, NY
    If any of this was true at one time, it has become less and less so in more recent times. You just can't generalize, as bass cabs tend to be considerably more complex and sophisticated than guitar cabs, and there are multiple factors that ultimately influence dispersion. Driver size is only one among them, and not necessarily even the most important one, relative to cabinet design especially.

    MM
     
  13. Fuzzbass

    Fuzzbass Gnarsty bass tones Supporting Member

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    Dec 13, 2001
    Location:
    Maryland, between Bawlmer & DC
    Works for me. My pair of Bergantino HS210 cabs is taller than my NV610.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. dukeorock

    dukeorock Gold Supporting Member

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    Mar 8, 2011
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Disclosures:
    Authorized greenboy designs builder

    Same here, even though I've had some pretty good ones
     
  15. Stev187

    Stev187 Peavey MegaBass Club! Supporting Member

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    Jan 11, 2011
    Location:
    Flint, MI (USA)
    Pair of stacked 12" cabs is where I want to go next. Glad to hear it has the Chef seal of approval. Lots of players seem to be going this way.

    --Steve
     
  16. Blah114

    Blah114 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    to me the ideal MIGHT even be 12 10s.. stacked atop each other.. instead of a horn, the 10" might be good.. I do really appreciate everyone's time. Schroeder cabs seem to have a loyal love or hate deal.. even the guys I know locally say, "they are not for everybody [when referring to Schroeder]..." but how can any cabinet be for everyone.. the challenge for me is I can't try out a lot of cabinets (locally) I'd like to try.. epifani, Eden, even Genz Benz.
     
  17. Gaolee

    Gaolee The Fat Violin Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    The usual 410 cabinet is the spawn of the devil. They are too low to the ground to hear reliably unless you put them on a rack or lift them up some other way. They are perfectly designed to destroy your back trying to move them. There's no logical way to load them in and out of a van by yourself. They take two people to herk up and down steps. You need a hand truck to move them unless you have very long arms and a huge ballast in your back pocket. An 810 is bigger and heavier but has none of those problems. A big folded horn is similar to an 810. Whoever invented the 410 cabinet with two parallel pairs of speakers was playing an evil trick on bass players everywhere.

    I do not have opinions. This is absolute truth!
     
  18. Passinwind

    Passinwind Charlie Escher Supporting Member

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    Dec 3, 2003
    Location:
    Columbia River Gorge, WA.
    I'd work on figuring that out, personally. Of the many Bergs I've heard, the 2-HD112 stack is a definite favorite.
     
  19. Blah114

    Blah114 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    true. the HD112 is an amazing cabinet.. I always try to ensure that is placed ATOP the HT112 live.. when I don't, I can not hear anything.. even faintly. the HT112 gets lost to me.
     
  20. Downunderwonder

    Downunderwonder

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    Location:
    New Zealand
    4x10 on a small stage is the pits.

    You're keeping your volume down for the sake of the FOH sound. Must some pretty big shows but tiny stage? How's the monitor situation?

    When I tilt my 2x10 back and use it as my personal monitor, it's magic. You could try doing that with your one favourite 12 but you might find the band can't hear you. I have had trouble from soundguy putting bass through monitors for everyone and then asking me to turn down, can you spell aaaaaarg?

    By reputation your good 12 might have similar performance to my vintage 15. I add my 2x10 vertical to carry 200 cap bar rooms with only kick mic'd.

    Mixing non identical cabs is a lottery and I got lucky. There is no guarantee adding a berg 2x10 would work for you, even if someone else likes it. You may also need to be concerned with the relative power handling of the 12 if you crank it up.

    Dispersion is how independent the sound is from the listening position. If you go to a loud gig with 4x10 / 6x10 / 8x10 cab carrying the room it is very obvious how the best of the mids and highs are reserved for those directly in front of the cab. You can buy a brand new .50 black powder musket but it's not the best for shooting rabbits.
     
  21. remainthesame

    remainthesame

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2008
    ive played nothing but 410s in a gig setting. not once did i ever have any of those problems. i heard myself fine, i never broke my back. ive found countless logical ways to load them into a van and only a few times did i need help to moving them up a flight of stairs. i know you said "the usual 410" meaning not all 410s but still...
     

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