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Design an AE410 in WinISD

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by MikeyB, Dec 3, 2008.

  1. MikeyB


    Aug 16, 2006
    Sykesville, MD

    So let's say you're looking to clone a Bergantino AE410 and you're using Deltalite-II 2510s. What would you pick for cab volume and port tuning?


  2. MikeyB


    Aug 16, 2006
    Sykesville, MD
    Another way to put it is; what kind of curve would you pick for your transfer magnitude function in order to mimic a really punchy 410?

    Oh, and I play 4-strings only so I can afford to keep my -10db point a little higher.


  3. zac2944


    Dec 28, 2004
    Rochester, NY
    The best way to reverse engineer an AE410 would be to get a real AE410 and a RTA (Real Time Analyzer) and do a frequency response test for the cab. Knowing the FR you can design something to respond similar. The high mid and high end would be tough to replicate since most of that is purely dependent on the drivers used, but you might might be able to get pretty close with the right drivers and crossover.

    Since you probably won't have access to a RTA and an AE410, you'll just have to make some assumptions and hope for the best.

    The AE410 is a pretty small (25.5" H, 22.75" W, 15.5" D) cab as far as 410s go. The height and width are only slight smaller than most, but with a shallow 15.5" depth you really give up some internal volume. Assuming that the AE410 is built using 3/4 inch ply I'd estimate an internal volume around 3.75 ft^3. It could be as much as 4.0ft^3 if the cab uses 1/2" plywood, but that is still pretty small. As a comparison here's my estimate for a few other well known 410s:

    Aguilar GS 410 - 4.5ft^3
    Eden D410XLT - 5.1ft^3
    Epifani UL2-410 - 4.6ft^3

    So given the smaller internal volume of the AE410, I'd have to guess that there isn't much deep low end going on there.

    Modeling the 2510 with WisISD in a 410 configuration at Vb=3.75ft and Fb=50Hz results in a small 1dB hump at 130Hz and an F3= 68Hz. This should give you a pretty tight low end, but not a very deep one. You start to hit theoretical Xmax around 350W, but I'd bet you could run closer to 400W-500W with a 4-string (as long as you're not boosting the bass) without farting out.

    The 2510 has a pretty bright top end that is very defined even without a tweeter. You'll see the slow rising high mids in the Eminence response graphs. I've built with this driver and my FR tests confirm this to be spot on. I don't know what the top end on the AE410 is like, but you could smooth out the 2510 by using a lower crossover point (2kHz-3kHz) and attenuating your tweeter.

    Reverse engineering is fun, but unless you have a AE410 at your disposal you might have a hard time getting close.
  4. You have FR testes? They must tingle nicely when playing bass.
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  6. MikeyB


    Aug 16, 2006
    Sykesville, MD
    Thanks, Zac.

    Our assumptions are very close. I'm assuming 1/2" ply on the AE based on it's weight, and I'll make some guesstimates about the volume of the bracing (and porting).

    The stated AE freq response is from 40hz. Yea, I know most freq responses aren't worth the paper they're written on, but this is Jim. B. and I'd like to think the 40hz is f10. Does that sound reasonable?

    If so, judging from WinISD graphs, the box would probably be closer to 4ft^3, suggesting the 1/2" ply so that's a decent sanity check.

  7. zac2944


    Dec 28, 2004
    Rochester, NY
    Sure does sound reasonable. If you model the 2510 410 at V[SUB]b[/SUB]=4.0ft^3 tuned to 50Hz you get an F[SUB]10[/SUB]=42Hz. So I see no reason why the AE410 couldn't hit F[SUB]10[/SUB]=40Hz.
  8. BrennP90


    Jun 26, 2008
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I don't know anything about cab building, but I do remember reading that bergantino cabs are built from baltic birch.
  9. tallboybass

    tallboybass Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Feb 25, 2003
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    The AE410 does indeed use 1/2" plywood.
  10. MikeyB


    Aug 16, 2006
    Sykesville, MD
    Thanks Tallboy!
  11. 51m0n


    Jun 30, 2005
    ae410 certainly can do deep enough for a 4 banger.

    Its punchy as you like, but not at the expense of a decent amount of bass should you want to go there, and it is not at all 'honky' in the mids IME.

    The crossover is really nice too, the interaction between tweeter and the top end of the cones does give a bit of a boost in the area, but I found its actually just enough for some great definition in a mix, rather than in any way overpowering. I reckon that will be one of the hardest bits to get 'right'.

    If you can reverse engineer something as good for significantly less cash then well done you! Looking forward to the build diary...
  12. MikeyB


    Aug 16, 2006
    Sykesville, MD
    As far as the tweeter, I have naive hopes that I can actually go tweeterless. :eek:

    I play verrry little slap on gigs, play 4-strings exclusively, and I kinda like the top end I get out of paper cones such as my NV610. Plus, those 2510s have some really nice detailed upper response all on their own...

  13. zac2944


    Dec 28, 2004
    Rochester, NY
    I think you'll be very happy with the top end from the 2510s. You won't get the same dispersion that you'd get with a tweeter or the really airy highs, but they still sound pretty nice on the top end.
  14. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    Massena NY
    Just wondering what ever came of this project? A 4 cuft cab tuned to 48 hz would look very similar to an nv610 with some extra low end and a similar top end. Actually alittle brighter. The same tuning with a 4.8 cuft cab would be flatter with even more low end. Just really nice drivers.

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