F Lydian

Discussion in 'Music Theory [DB]' started by terryjj1, Aug 22, 2012.


  1. terryjj1

    terryjj1 Guest

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    ok..now don't bite my head off but I'm trying to understand all the modes\scales of all the major scales...can someone, using crayons if you need to, please draw me a picture as to why the F Lydian mode-scale is F major with #4?...the vii mode scale will be my next question as to why the fifth note is flat...

    thanks

    tj
     
  2. Lobster11

    Lobster11 Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Sorry, I don't have any crayons handy, but....

    F Lydian is a mode of the C major scale, so it contains the same notes as the C major scale: namely C D E F G A B. If you play those notes starting with F -- the fourth note and thus the fourth mode -- you get F G A B C D E. The fourth note of THAT sequence is B, which is sharp (a half-step higher) relative to the natural 4th (B-flat).

    Does that help?
     
  3. terryjj1

    terryjj1 Guest

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    I understand and was aware ofall you said but that doesn't explain why it became sharp..it wasn't before as part of the c major scale but when starting from F it becomes sharp...I must be missing something as the scales start progressing through the different modes...
     
  4. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Administrator

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    Modes are nothing more and nothing less than a series of interval relationships from a fixed point. This article, while not written in crayon exactly, sums it up nicely.
     
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  6. bassdog

    bassdog

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    That B is the major 7 of C major scale, the "home" Ionian mode. So, if you are playing the Lydian mode of C major, that B is the 4th note of the F Lydian scale and is #4 by default. Just play the same notes beginning on the F. Don't play the same scale, just the notes. You see the intervals are the same but in different places in the various modes. Easy.
     
  7. carldogs

    carldogs

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    Remember you are in the key of C going from F to F, I know it's like a F maj scale with a raised 4th but don't relate it to the key of F. Starting at different points of the scale, C to C, D to D, until you are back to C again does create different patterns, these form the various chords of a particular key. In simple triads 1, 4, 5 are major, 2, 3, 6, are minor and the 7th one is diminished. If you start at C your first third and fith make your first chourd, now move to D 2nd position, lets call D the first note the third note would be F and the fifth A (we are looking at notes 2, 4, 6, of the C scale) as you see this naturally becomes a minor chord. Hope this clears things a bit.
     
  8. Lobster11

    Lobster11 Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Ha! I knew you were going to say that! I was stuck in that exact same loop for a long time until I learned how to think about modes in another way, as follows. (This might take a while, so go refill your coffee cup. I'll wait....)

    The way modes are usually taught is the way you are thinking about them: a family of 7-notes scales that are defined by the particular set of notes they contain, with each mode just starting on a different note of the scale. So from this perspective, the "family" of modes derived from the C-major scale comprises C Ionian (C D E F G A B), D Dorian (D E F G A B C), E Phrygian (E F G A B C D), etc. So in this way of thinking, you think about "F Lydian" in terms of how it relates to C-major -- which is that it contains the same notes, but starts on F instead of C.

    Now, the other other way to think about modes is to group them differently, and think of a "family" of modes in terms of the starting/root note that they share instead of the particular notes they contain. In this view, think of the "family" as comprising F Ionian (F G A B C D E), F Dorian (F G Ab Bb C D E), F Phrygian (F G Ab Bb C Db E), and so forth.

    So, now let's focus on F Lydian, per your request. In the first perspective, you think about F Lydian in terms of its relation to C major: viz., it contains the same notes, but starts on a different note (the fourth note, thus the 4th mode of C major). In the second perspective, you think about F Lydian instead it terms of its relation to F major: It starts on the same note as F major, but one or more of the other notes are different. Compared to F major (F G A Bb C D E), the one note in F Lydian (F G A B C D E) that has changed is the fourth note, B, which is sharp compared to the fourth note of F major, which was Bb. Similarly, F Dorian (F G Ab Bb C D Eb) is the same as F major except that the third and seventh notes are flat; F Phrygian is the same as F major except that the third, sixth, and seventh notes are all flat, and so forth. In other words, when someone says that F Lydian contains a "sharp fourth," that means specifically "....relative to F-major (Ionian)" -- not relative to C major.

    It's really useful to organize your practice of modes according to this latter perspective, too. In the usual (first) perspective, you'd probably practice the C major (Ionian) scale for a bit, and then play D Dorian, and then E Phyrigian, and so forth. Try doing this instead using the second perspective: Play through the F major (Ionian) scale for a bit, and then switch to F Dorian, and then F Phrygian, etc. This makes it easier to hear how each mode has its own distinct "flavor" -- knowledge that you can then put to use when you are playing.

    Does that make sense? The point is that you can think of any mode in either of these two ways, either in terms of how it compares with the major scale whose notes it contains or how it compares to the major scale starting on the same root note. The trick is to be able to see any given mode from both perspectives and go back and forth between them.
     
  9. terryjj1

    terryjj1 Guest

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    HOLY HELL!...could they have made it more complicated....I'm going to read the article pointed out to me by the cat guy AND read your reply a few times and try to apply what you recommend....I find that sometimes I read and read and read, and try to apply the theory and ..nothing..then it hits me..maybe this will happen here too....I guess all muscians must be highly intelligent pan -dimensional if they can grasp this theory quickly...I'm having flash backs of the myth of sisyphus here
     
  10. JGoldberg

    JGoldberg

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    How about this this? :)

    If you want the C major scale to sound like F Lydian you have to raise the 4th note.
     
  11. Lobster11

    Lobster11 Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Here's a great video by Scott Devine that provides the best explanation of modes that I've ever heard/seen, and upon which my opus above was largely based:

    http://scottsbasslessons.com/welcome-to-the-shed

    I appreciate your having noticed and acknowledged my superior intelligence and pan-dimensionality, but in fact nobody said that they grasped any of this "quickly." Indeed, at the very beginning of the video Scott points out that he struggled with this for many years -- stuck in the same loop that you're stuck in. His breakthrough came by switching to the alternative perspective that he then goes on to explain (and that I tried to summarize in my post).

    This is definitely one of those things that can seem hopelessly confusing for a long time, and then wham! -- you have an epiphany and it suddenly all makes sense. Hang in there!
     
  12. terryjj1

    terryjj1 Guest

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    thanks..I'll watch the presentation at home later today and hopefully experience the wham..


    thanks ALL!
     
  13. MonetBass

    MonetBass ♪ Just listen ♫ Supporting Member

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    I never understood why people try to define modes as raised/lowered scale degrees. That is so confusing, and for someone trying to learn and memorize which scale degrees to change depending on the mode is an absolute mess IMO. As Lobster11 and Chris pointed out, modes are merely scales starting at different points. Since you already know the keys, the name of the mode tells you what to play. So: F Lydian = C major scale starting on F. That tells me exactly what notes to play without having to think about the fact that the fourth is raised. Why complicate things? :D
     
  14. terryjj1

    terryjj1 Guest

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    One last question..

    When in, let's say dorian mode of the c major scale (D-7)...is it actually the d minor scale that is being played or does it still uses the same notes as the ionian mode but is only minor because of the intervalic relationship of the notes?.....I appreciate your patience everyone..I just gotta ask and know whats going on...
     
  15. Lobster11

    Lobster11 Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    The "complications" arise if you want to understand how the various modes are related to each other, rather than merely memorizing a list of which interval patterns you should play over which chords. What does it mean to say that F Lydian is the "fourth mode" of C? Why is it the case that if a song is in the key of C major, playing D Dorian will probably sound good over a Dm chord but D Lydian will probably sound awful? Indeed, why is it that if there is a D chord in the song, it is likely to be D minor or Dm7 rather than D major or Dmaj7 in the first place? And what does it even mean to say that the song is in "they key of C major"?

    The problem, I think, is that the traditional way of teaching/learning modes begins with the "complications," which makes it seem much harder to learn that it should and which tends to lock people into thinking about modes in one particular way.
     
  16. meandering

    meandering

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    It is typically not the natural minor/aeolian scale. Be careful not to confuse chords with scales, e.g. a D-7 chord is not necessarily the same as a D minor scale.

    A chord is made up of chord tones, let's consider a minor seventh chord which is comprised of the root, minor 3rd, natural 5th, and flatted 7th. Therefore a D-7 chord contains the notes D, F, A, C. At the beginning, you should be looking for a scale that contains these notes. Considering the modes of major that you are currently working on; dorian, phrygian, or aeolian all fit the bill (all with D as the root).

    D dorian: D, E, F, G, A, B, C
    D phrygian: D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb, C
    D aeolian: D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C

    So, how does one decide which to use? Look for context, i.e. how is the chord being used. Consider the following examples:

    Ex 1.
    D-7| G7|Cmaj7

    D-7 is functioning as a II chord in the key of C major. The mode built off of the second degree is D dorian which is the best choice for this progression.

    Ex. 2
    D-7| G7|C-7|F7|Bbmaj7

    D-7 is functioning as a III chord in the key of Bb major. The mode built off of the third degree is D phrygian which is the best choice for this progression.

    hope this helps
     
  17. terryjj1

    terryjj1 Guest

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    I actually understood what you wrote....one q: D-7..i understand the 7th note is flat...so it would actually be D F A Cb for the chord..?
     
  18. CrewsControl

    CrewsControl

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    Hi there, fellow modal theory newbie checking in. I had a "wham" moment recently and posted about it here. Maybe that will help you out.

    Here's my way of explaining modes in a nutshell: all 7 modes in the diatonic scale (do, re, mi, fa, etc) are composed of the same sequence of intervals, which are either a whole step, or a half step. The sequence is this:

    whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half-whole

    Where you start the sequence determines the mode. The sequence W h W W W h W (same as above) is Dorian mode.

    Code:
    W W W h W W h Lydian (F)
    W W h W W W h Ionian (major) (C)
    W W h W W h W Mixolydian (G)
    W h W W W h W Dorian (D)
    W h W W h W W Aeolian (minor) (A)
    h W W W h W W Phrygian (E)
    h W W h W W W Locrian (B)
    
    For me, it was both confusing and helpful to learn about modes based on the letter names of the scale. :D I got the idea that Dorian is the sequence of notes you get if you play a C major scale starting on D. And that Aeolian is the minor mode, and its the same sequence as if you played a C major scale starting on A. Likewise, you get a C major scale if you play an A minor scale starting on C. But I didn't really get the relation between the modes until I arranged them in the order of the circle of fifths. That's how they are arranged in the code block above.

    Dorian happens to have an equal number of major and minor intervals on either side of the scale, with the "low side" being notes 1234 and the "high side" 5678. Anyway, the 2nd is major, 3rd is minor, 4th is perfect, 5th is perfect, 6th is major, 7th is minor. Above Dorian, there are more major intervals than minor intervals in the scale. These modes sound brighter than Dorian, with more major tonality as you ascend, until you get to Lydian which sounds "more major" than the major scale (Ionian) because it has an augmented 4th (#4).

    Below Dorian, there are more minor intervals than major, and these modes sound darker. Locrian is all flat and diminished.

    One thing I think is important to mention, is that the ideas of "major" and "minor" came before music theoreticians invented the modal system. It's sort of like how Newtonian physics is encompassed by and explained by Relativity, but Relativity doesn't replace Newtonian physics when you just want to get the bank shot in the pocket. Same thing with modes.
     
  19. meandering

    meandering

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    The interval from D up to C is a minor 7th, also informally known as a flatted 7th (sorry, i should not have used this terminology in the original post). Before you jump into modes, make sure you have your intervals down.

    One of the easiest ways to think about intervals is build a major scale off of the first note. Let's consider C...

    if we move from C to D, we have moved to the second note of the major scale, the corresponding interval is a major second.

    If we move from C to Db, we have also moved to the second note, but it is flatted in relation to the key (in other words, Db is not contained in the C major scale). This interval is a minor second.

    If we move from C to E, we have moved to the third note of the major scale, the corresponding interval is a major third.

    If we move from C to Eb, we have also moved to the third note, but it is flatted in relation to the key (in other words, Eb is not contained in the C major scale). This interval is a minor third.

    Note that this doesn't apply to the 4th and 5th scale degrees. These are referred to as "perfect intervals" and are treated a little different. See a basic theory book...

    on to your question of D to C versus D to Cb...

    The key of D major has two sharps, C# and F#. I know you are about to say "but we are talking about a D minor chord!!!". The major key is just used to define intervals.

    if we move from D to C#, we have moved to the seventh note of the major scale, the corresponding interval is a major seventh.

    If we move from D to C, we have also moved to the seventh note, but it is flatted in relation to the key (in other words, C natural is not contained in the D major scale). This interval is a minor seventh.

    If we further move from D to Cb (enharmonic to B), we have also moved to the seventh note, but it is double flatted in relation to the key. This interval is a diminished seventh.

    In summary, when defining intervals, at first it is easiest to think in terms of the major key for the first note. This highlights another important issue: know your key signatures! One of Hal Crook's books lays this interval determining approach out nicely but any basic theory book should do. By now, i'm not sure if i've made any sense or made it worse for. If so, please disregard...
     
  20. shwashwa

    shwashwa

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    judging from the post number 3, it sounds like the origional poster needs to brush up on his intervals. the post immediately above me does that. the nice thing about intervals on the bass is that they are really easy. use the shape at first to teach you. put a finger on c, and then one on the f# on the next string. that is the shape of a sharp 4th and it will always be the shape of a sharp 4th. no matter which 2 notes they are. now move that shape to the starting note of F, now do you see why B is the shap 4th? this works for all intervals. you can also really see this easy on one string. interval means distance. the distance on one string from an F up to a B is 6 frets. thats a sharp 4th. the distance on one string to a Bb is 5 frets. thats a perfect 4th. the distance to C on one string is 7 frets. thats a perfect 5th. figure out the rest on your own.
     
  21. Stick_Player

    Stick_Player

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    Augment simply means to expand a given interval by a Half-Step.

    Starting with "F", an interval (from F-Bb), is a Perfect Fourth. When one "Augments" this Perfect Interval, the interval is made "bigger" by a Half-Step. F-B is an Augmented Fourth or noted as #4.

    Other than Augmented Fourth, One may also see Augmented Fifth, Augmented Ninth, and Augmented Eleventh used. Other options theoretically exist - Augmented Third, but you won't usually see that.
     

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