Help with a bass cab project...

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by sweaterboy77, Nov 15, 2012.


  1. sweaterboy77

    sweaterboy77

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    Hey all,

    I bought an empty Ampeg 410HLF cab a while back for dirt cheap. It came with the horn and x-over, but no 10" drivers. My goal in making this purchase was two fold; to have a smaller version of my Ampeg 8x10 (which is basically what the HLF series cabs are), and also, to re-grille the thing with 70s grille cloth to match my Ampeg V4 head.

    So, now I have cleaned up the cab, and am getting ready to paint the inside and was going to use silicone caulking to seal the cab so there are no possible air leaks (probably an over the top measure, but I've been told this is a good thing to do). Main reason I want to paint it is it smelled a bit like cat when I got it. Now it smells a bit like cleaning products where I cleaned it up. A good paint will seal it from smelling like anything but paint.

    I have an older Peavey 410TX cab that I think sounds really good. It's the older carpeted one with the single rear port in the back. I like the sound of the Sheffield speakers well enough, so my hope is to pull them from the Peavey, and put them in this Ampeg. The other bonus of this, is that the cab then becomes an 8ohm cab (stock, the HLF cabs are 4ohm), and this will allow me to use it with my old 8ohm Altec 15" cab when I want to (the two sound very nice together with the V4 head).

    My question is, what do I use for baffling inside the cab, and how much do I use? I've been told regular old R13 (I think that is 3" thick) un-batted fiberglass insulation is the best thing to use. Can anyone 2nd that? Also, does anyone have a wiring diagram of how to hook up 4x10" speakers with a x-over/horn setup? In calling Ampeg and Peavey, they said that the 8ohm horn does not affect the ohm draw of the four, ten inch speakers... I was afraid that maybe adding the horn would down the cab to 4ohm, but I'm told this is not the case.

    Any input from the pros out there on the Talk Bass forum would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you all!

    -Tim
  2. RickenBoogie

    RickenBoogie

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    The SVT410HE is like half of their 810, not the HLF cab, which is ported, and thus, needs proper drivers designed to work in a ported cab. It's not as easy as "dropping in" a set of spkrs. I would suggest you do a lot more reserarch before proceeding.
  3. derridiandrift

    derridiandrift

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    Like the post above mentioned, your HLF is definitely not like the 810 you're trying to emulate. That doesn't mean you can't proceed with refurbishing it. I'd suggest you find the stock drivers or something that has very similar T/S properties, rip out the crossover and the horn and seal up the hole (for the tweeter, not the cab ports). Putting random drivers into a cab is a crap shoot that won't often yield the best results.

    I get the whole idea of matching up with your amp. I re-grilled my tuxedo style 810 to match my SVT-VR. Looks badass (goes along with the tone). If you like the sound of the Peavey, maybe you should consider refinishing that cab to match the amp. Simpler solution.

    Post pics along the way so we can watch your progress.
  4. bobcruz

    bobcruz

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    Mar 10, 2004
    Well, those replies weren't very encouraging! Sometimes a crap shoot comes up a winner, and what's the harm in trying? Take it easy on the power and listen to how the Peavey drivers sound in the Ampeg box. You could reverse engineer the interior volume and porting of each cab and see how close they are, and if the Ampeg is much different you could try to modify the port(s) to match the Peavey cab you liked. For lining the cab (the baffle is the front panel that holds the woofers), use either corrugated mattress topper (not the super dense memory foam, just the cheap stuff from Walmart) or quilt batting from a fabric store. Staple or spray glue it in place. It's best to line all interior walls other than the baffle, and keep the lining away from the ports so there's room for the air to move. Good luck, Bob
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  6. will33

    will33

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    This^^

    I'd very much second the notion of doing a lot more homework if you were talking about buying drivers, but seeing as you already have everything for this experiment, it won't hurt to try.

    So, line it and load it up. Start at low volume with a very clean tone and turn up gradually so you can easily hear where the speakers start to sound stressed or distorted and don't turn up any higher.

    If you find it to sound overly woofy or distort way early, you can try blocking one of the ports (this lowers the box tuning). That's about it.

    If it ends up being way off base from what you like, then it's time for more homework, or just flipping it for a 410HE.
  7. will33

    will33

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    Or just refinish your Peavey that you already like to look like an Ampeg and just pass along the HLF cab.
  8. Stumbo

    Stumbo Wherever you go, there you are. Supporting Member

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    How close is the interior volume and the port size/length of the Ampeg cab to the Peavey cab?

    If you setup the Ampeg close to the Peavey, you should b in the ballpark.

    If you can get the TS parameters for the speakers and the interior cab volume for the Ampeg, maybe one of the speaker gurus will weigh in here and help you out.
  9. sweaterboy77

    sweaterboy77

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    Thanks for the feedback guys (both encouraging, and non). I didn't mean for anyone to concentrate on the 'half an 8x10' quite so much... sorry if I said something to make that the point of concentration.

    I am really wanting this to be it's own 4x10 cab. The 410HLF cab is indeed a ported cab, three front ports, and is tuned to 28Hz. So, not at all like an 8x10, that is correct. In fact, from what I've read, the cab can actually go lower than an 8x10 because of how it's designed. It also is a deeper cabinet than that of the Ampeg Classic 8x10.

    I've played the 410HLF cabs new in store at GC... I thought it sounded pretty good, but was very deep and muddy with the stock speakers. That was what gave me the idea to begin with, was that the Peavey 410TX Sheffield drivers are just a bit more mid-rangey... good punch... and, I already had them : )

    The Peavey drivers freq range is something like 60-5,000Hz, and I think the OEM/Eminence made drivers in the stock Ampeg 410HLF are like 40-5,000Hz.

    Here are the specs for the two speakers from what I have found...

    Peavey Sheffield TVX 1035-8
    10" Speaker
    Impedance: 8 Ohms
    Power capacity: 300 W Peak 150 W Program 75 W Continuous
    Sensitivity: 89.1 dB 1 Watt / 1 meter
    Usable frequency range: 60 Hz ~ 4 kHz
    Cone: Kevlar® impregnated cellulose
    Voice coil diameter: 1.75" / 44.4 mm
    Voice coil material: 2 layers, thermally bonded copper wire Kapton former Nomex® stiffener
    Net weight lb. / kg: 7.4 lbs. / 3.4 kg
    Znom (ohms) 8
    Revc (ohms) 5.88
    Sd (Square Meters) 0.335
    BL (T/M) 9.37
    Fo (Hz) 49.3
    Vas (liters) 38.7
    Cms (uM/N) 243.5
    Mms (gm) 42.8
    Qms 4.030
    Qes 0.880
    Qts 0.720
    Xmax (mm) 3.5
    Le (mH) 0.14
    SPL (1W 1m) 89.1
    No (%) 0.5%
    Vd (cu. in. / ml) 7.1 / 117
    Pmax (Watts pgm.) 150
    Disp (cu. in. / ml) 83 / 1360


    These are the two closest "OEM" speakers that the internet shows as replacements for what Ampeg uses in a stock 410HLF...

    THIS ONE... (this website lists all the specs)
    http://usspeaker.com/legend bp102-1.htm

    OR, THIS ONE...
    http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/product/B-Beta-225W-350W/86-510-04.html

    (Some have recomended this one as an alternative to the OEM Ampeg... just as an FYI... not using this one at all)
    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-320


    So, from calling Peavey, they said that my Peavey 410TX cab is tuned to 30Hz. The Peavey cab has one large rear port, the Ampeg cab has three smaller front ports. The x-overs differ by 500Hz. That is to say, I believe the Ampeg crosses over at 4.5KHz, and the Peavey crosses over at 5KHz.

    Given all that info above, I would think that putting the speakers from the Peavey into the Ampeg cab wouldn't be a complete night and day change. I'm sure it will be quite different than the stock Ampeg sound. Differences I'm antipicating would be that the cab is now capable of less wattage, will probably exibit more mid-range sound, but may have a bit more low end 'punch' due to cab being tuned a few Hz lower, as well as the more modern front multi-port system versus the older large single port design of the Peavey.

    I believe I'm going to keep the horn in the circuit as well... one poster replied and advised taking it out. I agree in that I don't often find myself using a horn at 100%, but I do find it nice to have, at least between 20-50% on the dial of the horn, as it works nicely to help punch out notes above the fifth position.

    Not sure it makes too much a difference, but as far as 'styles' that I mostly play (and plan on using this cab for), are pop/rock/country. Some bands/artists we cover a few songs of are Buck Owens, Graham Parsons, Elvis Costello, The Replacements, The Nerves, and The Old 97's. Basses mostly played are a Rick 4001s, Rick 4003, and a Epi Jack Cassidy.

    Again, any input would be greatly appreciated, mostly on baffling and also any more input and thoughts on what more to expect from the speaker switch to this cab.

    Thanks again!

    -Tim
  10. sweaterboy77

    sweaterboy77

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    Feb 3, 2005
    Thought I should mention, I am pretty novice on speaker cab design, and on exactly what specs of speakers mean and how to follow them. Not to say I'm completely ignorant to them, I get a lot of the principles and the physics, however I don't know which equations to use to calc a lot of what I seemingly need to know, and have never used any of the software packages that others have mentioned here on TalkBass. TS param's and calculating port length differences are things I admittedly cannot speak technically about... I probably do need to sit down and run some numbers and do more research, but as a couple of posters have already mentioned, I have all the supplies, have talked with a couple of tech support people at both Harmon (Ampeg) and at Peavey, and I don't think anything is so far off that it's going to damage the drivers, which would be my only real concern with this project.

    Another added note, as to why I really wanted to use the Ampeg HLF410 cabinet, besides the (IMHO) horrible carpet covered/metal grille look of the Peavey cab, is that my main bass amp is a 1970 Ampeg V4 head. This head is 30" wide (wider than most cabs these days, and looks funny to me that the head is wider than the cab it sits on). The Ampeg 410HLF cab is 30" tall. If I set it sideways though, the head sits perfect on it, and man, does it look awesome! Even better when I get the era correct grille cloth on it! Fliptops.com sells a 410HLF complete front grille with era correct cloth for a mere $70!

    Anyway, again... any more feedback and input (for or against this project) would be great!

    I'll try to get some pics up after I start the process.
  11. will33

    will33

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    The Qts and EBP of your Sheffields says try plugging all the ports and running it as a sealed box. Your low-tuned enclosures will somewhat mimick a sealed box but try it fully sealed as well.

    I'm doubting the 28hz tuning of the HLF, may be confusing that with a published frequency response or something. With 3 ports of any size, there should be pipes behind them extending a good ways back into the box if it really is that low. I thought some models had no pipes and some shorter pipes?
  12. will33

    will33

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  13. will33

    will33

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    With the V4 being your amp, you can put the most focus on getting the lowend flavor how you like it and not worry too much about ultimate excursion and powerhandling. You're not hitting it with that much.
  14. sweaterboy77

    sweaterboy77

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    Feb 3, 2005
    Thanks 'will33' for your info and that great Eminence link! I haven't come across that before. It does have some great explanations there... that will most certainly help clarify things a bit for me.

    This is what Ampeg states on their website and in the manual for the 410HLF:
    Frequency Response (-3dB): 48Hz-18kHz
    Usable Low Frequency (-10dB): 28Hz

    That "28Hz" they refer to, are you thinking that may be more what the speakers are capable of in this particular cabinet? I believe I had read or perhaps I talked with someone at Ampeg who stated that the 28Hz was what the cab was tuned to. Going by what you said about the ports, it may be true about the 28Hz, as the three ports do have plastic tubes that extend within the cabinet. Going from memory, I'd guess each plastic tube extends about 4" deep, and that the diameter of each hole (port opening) is probably around 3 1/2" wide.

    These reviews on Harmony Central seem to be on par with what I've experienced from the stock cabinets, the speakers, and the build quality and design of the cab:

    http://www.harmonycentral.com/products/59868

    Great low end, okay mids, well constructed. That, and it matches my V4 so well is why I thought it might be a great candidate for the Sheffields from the Peavey cab. I actually bought the Peavey cab after I bought the empty 410HLF cab, specifically for the project; 410HLF cab cost $60 (included horn and x-over), and the Peavey I bought from a friend for $200. I'll spend another $70 on a new grille from Fliptops... so all told I'll be into the thing for $320. Still $180 less than I can ever find a good condition used 410HLF for on my local Craigslist. And, I would buy the replacement grille cover anyway, even if I had a new one, so as to match the 70s grille cloth of my V4.

    Plus, there's something to be said for having fun in the garage on a project. It will also be a bit different from any other 410HLF out there, and that's always kinda cool to have a one off (so long as it sounds good that is ; ) I'm reminded of the story that Jimmy Page used the awesome Supro Thunderbolt amp with a 12" speaker in place of the stock 15". Had I been there, I would have called him mad for altering that great amp, but then I sure can't argue with the results he got. Most of that was from his fingers and soul than the amp, but if you've every played through an old Valco amp, you know it sure doesn't hurt your tone at all!
  15. sweaterboy77

    sweaterboy77

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    Feb 3, 2005
    My V4 has 6550 tubes in it, so I think it's only putting out around 120w... maybe 130w max. I've read that the V4 differs from the V4B a bit as well, in that the low end circuit lets more through on the B version. That was one of the added bonuses I was thinking of having a cab tuned so low, was that it might make up for those few extra Hz that my V4 isn't letting through the circuit. Anyway, I don't think that the wattage will be enough to kill the speakers, nor any 4x10 bass cabs I know of.

    I have a GK800 I wouldn't mind testing it with as well, I think that amp is 200w @ 8ohm (and maybe 300w @ 4ohm? Not sure, could be 300w @ 8ohm as well). I know I did blow out the CTS speakers in my old 70s Fender 2x15 Bassman cab with that GK years ago.
  16. rogypop

    rogypop

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    sorry havent got the time to read through the whole thread but if you still got no drivers buy eminence b810´s and seal the cab, all punch, no mud.
  17. will33

    will33

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    The low frequency response of the system and the frequency the actual box is tuned to are two different things.

    Just guessing at it, the HLF box is probaboy tuned somewhere 50 hz, maybe low 50's. That wouod help get some bass out of the Sheffields. If they distort on the low notes, try blocking off one port. That should put it somewhere in the 40's and help control the cones on the low notes.

    Also, due to your driver parameters, try it as a sealed box as well, meaning block off all ports. That may be hit or miss. The box might be a littke too large for the air inside to act as a sort of "spring" and help keep control of the cones.

    I'd just try it all 3 ways and pick which sounds best. Best to make that judgement at a gig, or at least a rehearsal. What sounds nice solo doesn't always work best with a group.

    If you don't like any of them, then go about looking at new drivers, or just getting a different cab.

    The 4 speakers are positioned in a square, so won't hurt a thing to use the cab on it's side if it looks nicer that way.
  18. will33

    will33

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    Another option if you end up not liking what you're getting out of your sheffields. Those are SVT replacements.

    I'd try what you have first though.

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