Help with correct fingering

Discussion in 'Orchestral Technique [DB]' started by Andy Mopley, Mar 18, 2014.


  1. Andy Mopley

    Andy Mopley

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Hi all

    extract if from Beethoven's 7th - with the second bar after A, is the fingering I have indicated correct or are there better ways to play those legato bars?

    Thank you!

    Attached Files:

  2. bejoyous

    bejoyous

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    Oct 23, 2005
    Location:
    London, Ontario
    Looks good. Only difference I would do is 12 and 16 after rehearsal A, I would pay the C# on the A-string with 4 in first position so that the F# and the octave higher one would more likely be in tune with the shift on a weak beat.
  3. PaulCannon

    PaulCannon

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    Frankfurt, Germany
    Definitely.

    I also usually avoid barring 4-4 in third position. You could fork across using 2-3, or shift up the G string and then move across.
  4. Andy Mopley

    Andy Mopley

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    Sep 24, 2011
    OK, thanks!!
  5. David Potts

    David Potts

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    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Perhaps also look at using 3 - 3 - 3 instead of 4 - 4 - 4 then back to 4 down the D string for F sharp. Two reasons (1) don't bar 3 across but hold your index finger down on B and "crush" 3 across from C# - F# - C#, (2) your index finger is already on the D string making it easier to drop the hand back to F# in first position) and play the last three notes more accurately.

    Also, in orchestra the passages are so loud that you can afford to tug at each note slightly to bring it out, ie slightly portamento, not strictly legato. What do you think, Paul and bejoyous?

    Cheers, DP
  6. Andrew McGregor

    Andrew McGregor

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    I'd be inclined to do that same bar 2-3-2 then back down to 4; that avoids the bar by putting a different finger in that same place on the adjacent string, and also gets you a nice secure shift back to first.
  7. Les Fret

    Les Fret

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    I would do the same fingering as you have only shift after the F# 1st finger on the A string to C# with the 4th finger on the A string.
    Using 2-3-2 for the C#-F# will likely give you intonation problems.
  8. PaulCannon

    PaulCannon

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    I'm sorry, but I hate it when people do that. It completely disturbs the line.
  9. Dbass926

    Dbass926

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    Jun 20, 2005
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    Philadelphia, PA
    +1 Paul, the "sausage" approach employed by so many cellists is a really hard pill to swallow.
  10. Andrew McGregor

    Andrew McGregor

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    It is an extended technique, so it'll be an intonation problem until you practice it. It can be done reliably.
  11. Fez1

    Fez1

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    Jan 8, 2012
    forked fingerings haven't been an extended technique since the 19th century.
  12. bejoyous

    bejoyous

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    Oct 23, 2005
    Location:
    London, Ontario
    Bridging over two strings with the same finger (as with the C#, F# notes with the pinky) has never caused problems for me. That seems to be standard fingering technique. It keeps the palm square to the fingerboard as well.

    Slurred legato is slurred legato. If Beethoven wanted a Ya Ya Ya sound, there'd be little dashes or dots as well as a slur. Besides the passage is loud because all the celli, basses and probably bassoons are playing the passage. With 8-20 people playing it with their own varying tugs would blur the line.

    Unless, of course, if it's the conductor's vision of the piece to want that.
  13. robobass

    robobass

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    ??? Can anyone tell me what this guy is talking about? I haven't been making my yoga sessions or something.
  14. robobass

    robobass

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    Private Inventor - Bass Capos
    +1!
  15. neilG

    neilG

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    Ventura, CA
    Dunno. I'm still looking for the B he mentions.
  16. neilG

    neilG

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    These are more properly called parallel fingerings. Used by fretted instruments all the time and a useful and necessary tool in many cases for DB.
  17. thailandbassman

    thailandbassman

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    I disagree. A slight placement of notes under a slur sounds a lot more vocal and musical to me than a perfectly smooth bow. When you sing a slurred legato line do you not still give each note a clear enunciation?
  18. PaulCannon

    PaulCannon

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    Not when I want to hear a clear sense of connection and direction, no.
  19. David Potts

    David Potts

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    Aug 31, 2007
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Paul and bejoyous, would you agree with any or all of the following-

    (1) there are degrees of portamento that will fit in with and indeed clarify string crossings without being considered a series of accents,
    (2) slurring the first three notes in one unbroken movement, whether you bar across or use another fingering, will muddy the sound because the two vibrating strings blur into each other and produce an ugly 4th.( try slurring from open D to open G and back again in one bow - an extreme example I know),
    (3) the bass articulation rapidly sounds less distinct and more rounded as you move away. If it starts as a blur this will not improve with distance,
    (4) The slur sign is not necessarily an absolute when it comes to connecting notes smoothly. There is room for interpretation, just as there is for degrees of staccato.
    (5) Consider the overall context, the amount of energy in this movement, its strong rythms and what the rest of the orchestra are playing in what can be a big wash of sound. We are often doubling with the Celli who have different tunings and fingerings and articulate more easily than we do.

    I once had the chance to ask Tom Martin to demonstrate how he could articulate those huge opening slurred passages in Richard Strauss" Heldenleben. He played them magnificently then asked me to grasp his arm lightly just above his right elbow while he repeated them. There was a faint twitch as he articulated each note and yet it sounded and looked as though the bow movement was unbroken.

    Cheers everyone, DP
  20. David Potts

    David Potts

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    Aug 31, 2007
    Location:
    Sydney Australia
    Sorry, robobass and neilG, I should have said "in bars 10 to 16 after A....."

    Turning your fingers slightly towards the bridge and holding B down on the D string with the first finger will allow you to swing your third finger rapidly between C#, F# and back. It will also allow for (1) people with short little fingers and (2), basses with short necks and is yet another way for people to try before choosing what suits them best from all the above.

    Just another way to skin a cat.....

    Cheers,DP

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