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ii chord ideas.

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by GlennCarbon, Dec 20, 2013.


  1. GlennCarbon

    GlennCarbon

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    Scranton Pennsylvania
    Using superstition as an example, and to make things easier lets say its in E rather than Eb. Most of the song is based around that pentatonic riff and that pentatonic riff is where my question/discussion is geared towards. The pentatonic riff is complamented with a dom 7 chord, from what I understand you can play almost anything over a dominant seven chord, like a pentatonic, blues scale, mixolydian, Dorian etc. I like to jam Dorian over it. So if I am playing Dorian over it can I consider it a ii chord and continue to play in the key of D major over the riff. I have recorded myself playing in the key of D along to a backing track in E. I like the results. Does anyone do this or am I stumbling around.

    My train of thought is, the riff doesn't have any sixth notes be it major or minor. So it could be approached as an aeolian making it the relative minor of G or what if I solo a Dorian over that dom7 making it the ii of D because Dorian is the second mode of a major scale. All the notes in e Dorian would be in D Ionian. Does the E7 chord really dictate what's going on or is the riff what is in charge of the phrase.
     
  2. bigboy_78

    bigboy_78

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    This is the correct applciation of theory. I've played something I like the sound of, and I've explained it/know what I've done.

    All else is talking points.
     
  3. GlennCarbon

    GlennCarbon

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  4. FretlessMainly

    FretlessMainly

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    Nov 17, 2010
    I think you could ask your questions in a more clear fashion. Whenever you state "Dorian" you should indicate which Dorian scale you are referring to. If I understand your approach, you are proposing to play the following scale over an E7:

    E Dorian: E F# G A B C# D E. Correct? If so, it won't really sound "Dorian" because the I chord is Dom7 not min7. My approach would be to treat the E7 as an E7(#9), which is a very common interpretation, which gives:

    E F# F## (or G) G# A B C# D E.

    I think you're over-thinking this Dorian thing. My scale gives you all the notes you have plus the proper 3rd, and is a common approach to a bluesy rock theme based on a I7 chord. Dorian is a tonality with a characteristic sound. What you are playing effectively transmits to the ear as E7(#9) and you just happen to be omitting the natural 3rd. Your notes aren't wrong, but I get the sense that you'd be better served learning modes in the context of modal music, not as scale choices in other contexts.
     
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  6. Turock

    Turock Supporting Member

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    If it sounds good, that's all that matters.
     
  7. FretlessMainly

    FretlessMainly

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    Nov 17, 2010
    Well, yes and no. At some point, getting the correct notes through an overly-complex approach to choosing them can lead to problems. It's cool that Glenn has discovered that an E Dorian scale works over E7 in this context, but it doesn't really teach him anything about what Dorian is as a tonality. That the title of this thread is "ii chord ideas" and has absolutely nothing to do with ii chords would suggest that understanding why you've learned something is as important as learning it.
     
  8. GlennCarbon

    GlennCarbon

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    I'm not just saying that Dorian works over the E7like a pentatonic scale. I'm saying the entire key of D and everything that goes with it is appealing to me over the E7.I am aware of the scale you described with bit a major and minor third. I was questioning E7 the chord, yes it has a major third, a perfect fifth and minor seventh.yes it is a strong sounding chord, it is used as substatutions for minor chords all the time. If we had a long section of a jam or song that was one dom seventh chord, could it be looked at as a substitution of a minor chord, in this case a ii chord and then arpeggios and scales from the key center be played over the duration.
     
  9. FretlessMainly

    FretlessMainly

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    Well, that's fine if it works for you. I prefer to ground things in what they are, rather than looking outside the tonality for things that work. To bring a Dorian concept into what to play over an E7 (I7) chord is over-thinking things in my book. Out of curiosity, if you were aware of my E7(#9) approach and the notes associated with it and you posted thoughts on using a scale that had no inconsistencies with said scale, what exactly were you looking for?
     
  10. GlennCarbon

    GlennCarbon

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    Answers......madness......horror.....and if what i was talking about was common practice. I really didnt think i was over thinking,just being creative and to find a way to have more off or funky notes without having to think about it. The 7#9 is what stevie ray vaughn used.
     
  11. Crazyeelboy

    Crazyeelboy Gold Supporting Member

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    Moscow, Russia
    I can see two problems in the approach. First, if the song is in E, treat it as such and innovate from there. Second, a part of this is to facilitate communication between musicians - if you twist things around, you won't be able to communicate effectively with other musicians.

    That said, keep innovating! As for finding new notes to use for solos, remember that scales are essentially guidelines - they create the essential chord tones, but there is no law against drawing outside the lines and using other notes if they work.
     
  12. davidhilton

    davidhilton Supporting Member

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    If u like the sound of dorian over an E7 chord then cool...but me personally, if Im gonna imply the #9 chord (which u r doing when u play the G, from an E dorian), well, the sound of the sharp 9 and maj13(6) and a natural 4 ur not really hitting the changes. If you want to get the #9 sound with playing the G, why aren't playing the b9 as well? Natural 9 and #9 together without the Maj 3rd...plus u have the natural 4 and maj .13...IMO theres other choices man. It all depends on the context ur playing...All Dominant 7 chords don't by default get mixo- like someone else suggested. If ur in a minor key ur gonna prob want the b9,#9, b13 sound in there- u can play the alt'd scale over it, spanish phrigian, half-whole scale...you can also do things like: play G dom bebop, E minor pent, you can play some cool hexatonic stuff like an Emaj/Gmin triad...that gives u root, #9, 3, #4, 5, b7...or an Fmin/Gmin- that gives u an alt'd sound. so many things u can do. www.basslessonslosangeles.com
     
  13. davidhilton

    davidhilton Supporting Member

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    Hey man, Sine u sound like ur just stating to explore this stuff and if live in LA I'll give u a free lesson. If ur not in LA we can do a Skype lesson. Anyways, check out my site and good luck...Keep Playing Music! www.basslessonslosangeles.com
     
  14. narud

    narud Supporting Member

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    if i hear someone trying to get artsy over 7#9 chord when its in the context of superstition or a james brown tune or something like the op is talking about, im walking out!;)
     
  15. GlennCarbon

    GlennCarbon

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    I thought I was getting some great info from Narud and then I looked at his youtube stuff and saw that he is a white guy.......way to funny. Ok Narud, thanks for the tips. White people.
     
  16. narud

    narud Supporting Member

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    im actually the palest mexican youre bound to meet. :bassist:
     
  17. FretlessMainly

    FretlessMainly

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    Well, that's a rather provincial approach to this whole discussion. Robert Johnson used the Dom7(#9) in the 30s; Howlin' Wolf used it in the 40s and 50s; Hendrix used it in the 60s; all long before SRV. Many others have used it as well. My point isn't to say that a Dom7 chord that functions as the I chord should be voiced as a Dom7(#9); my point is that a Dom7 chord that functions as the I chord can often be thought of as a Dom7(#9) in terms of the scales used over it.
     

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