1. Welcome to TalkBass, the Premier Bass Player Community and Information Source. We've been uniting the Low End Since 1998!

    We're glad you've found us. Register a 100% Free Account to post and unlock tons of features.

Is this musically correct?

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Murmaider, Jan 28, 2014.


  1. Murmaider

    Murmaider

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Let's say you're playing something and you're going for a sort of eerie/ heavy sound (please excuse my ****** tab writing):

    A ---------7--5------------7--5
    E 5-7-8-5--7--8-5-7-8-5--7--8

    Is it musically correct if you flatten that entire riff on the next two measures?

    A----------6---4-------------6---4
    E 4-6-7-4---6---7-4-6-7-4---6---7

    I like how that sort of thing sounds, and I plan to use it sometime when I think up some riffs, I'm just not sure if it is musically right to do that, although I feel like it is.

    So yeah, is this correct?
     
  2. BioWeapon

    BioWeapon

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Why would you worry about how "musically correct" a riff is, if it sounds great to your ear?
    There's no need to be correct in order to play music. What sounds good, sounds good.
     
  3. Duckwater

    Duckwater

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Location:
    USA, Washington
    You can do whatever you want
     
  4. Murmaider

    Murmaider

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Well I mean if a song was in the key of A minor and you did that riff, flattening it would mean none of the notes you are playing are in the key of A minor. So either this isn't musically correct, or there is some sort of TERM associated with this sort, whether it be "diminishing" or "augmenting," I don't really understand fully what either of those are so forgive me haha

    But yeah, is there a term for that in theory?
     
  5. Register to disable this ad
  6. DiabolusInMusic

    DiabolusInMusic Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism Gold Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Location:
    Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
    Remember that music theory is just that, theory. Nobody is practicing musical science.

    There are no wrong answers.

    EDIT: Are you doing it mid song? Your just changing the key (To G#/Ab), if you mean moving the whole song to a half step down, you would be transposing it it to another key. diminished and augmented are terms applied to chords or intervals.
     
  7. Joel Graham

    Joel Graham Exiting Gracefully Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    In looking at it, the easiest definition I have for it is:
    A minor to B major to E major. A usable pattern... Would provide a lot of cool solo opportunities for a guitarist (for instance)...
     
  8. Murmaider

    Murmaider

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013

    Are you saying flattening that riff changes the key to B major? That doesn't seem right, explain haha, I'm a theory noob x)
     
  9. Joel Graham

    Joel Graham Exiting Gracefully Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Definitely musically "correct"! Rock On!!
     
  10. Bassist4Eris

    Bassist4Eris Non Serviam Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2012
    Location:
    Scotia NY
    If it sounds good when you do it, it must be correct.

    It's called modulation - a fancy word for changing keys. You're moving (or modulating) from A minor to A flat minor.
     
  11. Joel Graham

    Joel Graham Exiting Gracefully Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2004
    Naw! It looks at a glance to center around A minor with a B major to E major aspect for the "tension-release" aspect in the harmony... It could from this point be more than this discussion...

    When you begin the riff or, shall we say, start the cycle again- it starts on the A string with the (tabbed) 5-7?

    Seems to be rooted in A minor...

    To answer your inquiry, you're hearing a I/II/VII sound in the riff... I guess the c (minor 3rd of A) and b notes along with the flat 5 of the A in both the B major and E major chords...
     
  12. jbalou02

    jbalou02

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2010
    Location:
    Petoskey, MI 49770
    Ask Rob Zombie, I bet he'd know. If he doesn't reply then he may have stolen it.

    Do what your ear tells you...
     
  13. metlman72

    metlman72

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    The way I see it is this, can the drummer play a beat behind it and does the guitar hit the change with you, then it is right. That is a very workable pattern. From your bio it looks like your a death metal guy. Try that pattern as groups of 16th notes instead of single notes. Would make a rather nice run.
     
  14. MalcolmAmos

    MalcolmAmos Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2009
    Location:
    Deep East Texas Piney Woods
    :rollno: Is it correct?

    :p It sounds good.

    :rollno: Yes, I know, but, is it correct?

    :p What do you mean by; Is it correct? The first riff is all notes from the C major scale, no flats or sharps, so if you were trying for the C major scale, it is correct. And like any riff if you take that same order of notes and move it up or down X number of frets it'll still sound good. But, it no longer is in the C major scale.

    :rollno: I'll ask the question another way. Is the second riff correct?

    :p Correct in what way? It no longer has the notes of the C major scale, it still sounds good, ..............

    ...... and if you return to the notes of the C major scale this little side trip was correct. It's OK to go out if you return to the original key/scale to end the phrase or tune. Now the question is how long can you stay out before coming back in? I paraphrase here, but, Satriani said to be back in for the 6th note. Now if you are modulating to another key, then that is another story....
     
  15. lfmn16

    lfmn16 Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2011
    Location:
    charles town, wv
    Disclosures:
    I'm a Fuzzrocious-aholic. It's been one week since I bought my last Fuzzrocious pedal.
    If you are trying to write a Bach Invention then it is not correct. If you are trying to write rock music, there are no rules. As someone else said, music theory tells you what you did, not what to do.
     
  16. Nashrakh

    Nashrakh

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2008
    Location:
    Hamburg, Germany
    To my ears it simply sounds like A minor to Ab minor. Nothing about it, people like Wayne Shorter do these nondiatonic chord progressions all the time (see Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum!)
     
  17. Bainbridge

    Bainbridge

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Forget the philosophical discussion, just tell him what he wants to know, people.

    What you're doing is called "transposition". Transposition is when you take an idea and move it to a different pitch level. This can be either diatonic (within a single key) or chromatic (keeping the same interval relationships; going to a different key). Yours is chromatic. The original is in the key of A minor. Then, you transpose it down by a half step (the interval of a minor second) to the key of G# minor. If you do this a third time (to G minor), then it is called a sequence. If you do it a fourth time (to F# minor), then it is still a sequence, but as my composition teacher once told me, "if you do it twice, it's a coincidence; if you do it three times, it's a sequence; if you do it four times, it's a mistake," so be aware of how things are balancing out musically.

    Transposition can also be done by different intervals. You could go from A minor to G# minor (down a minor second) to E minor (down a major third). Transposition down or up by thirds (minor thirds are a distance of three frets, major thirds are a distance of four) is kind of a cool sound. Experiment around with it.
     
  18. Mushroo

    Mushroo

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2007
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Nice explanation, Bainbridge.

    Lots of songs have a section that is transposed up or down a distance of 1 or 2 frets. It is 100% "musically correct." :)
     
  19. atticpenny

    atticpenny

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Location:
    Virginia
    Some very good advice on here. Modulation/transposition is a fun tool in the musical toolbox, and is pretty common in many styles of music. Some very popular examples is Zep's "Heartbreaker," which takes the primary riff and modulates up a full step (IIRC). The song "Fever" (Peggy Lee's version, IIRC) modulates a half step up twice in the song. Very powerful dynamic.

    The only advice I'll add is that if you are going to modulate the key, chances are you want to make sure everyone else modulates with you, so you stay in the same key. Of course there may be the chance that shifting a riff while the other instruments stay the same might work. Worth trying, but usually that kind of dissonance can sound too "jarring" and might sound awful. That's what rehearsals are for. I'm of the school of thought that musical experimentation is always worthwhile. :)
     
  20. DiabolusInMusic

    DiabolusInMusic Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism Gold Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2010
    Location:
    Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
    You don't transpose mid song, you modulate. You transpose songs into another key. Mind you, I am not formally educated so I might be wrong.

    The problem with musical terms is that there are about 5 acceptable terms for everything. Like flat 5, diminished 5th, augmented 4th, tritone, they all mean the exact same thing.l
     
  21. Bainbridge

    Bainbridge

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    To add to my first post, chromatic transposition means that you're modulating, but modulation does not mean that you're transposing. Transposition requires that you have the same melodic idea moving around. Modulation only means that you're moving from one key to another. This happens very often with unrelated melodic materials, such as a verse being in A minor and the following chorus being in F major. Modulating sequences usually occur in the confines of a single section.

    *Edit*

    I typed up my addendum while you posted this. I believe it will address the distinction. TL;DR -

    Same material, different key - transposed and modulated.
    Different material, different key - just modulated.
     

Share This Page