Low End For a Sub

Discussion in 'Live Sound [BG]' started by Tedward, Dec 24, 2013.


  1. Tedward

    Tedward Supporting Member

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    The PA for our band is in need of a sub. We are going to start mic'ing the drums and running the bass through the PA. The system we have is a Carvin XP8800 powered mixer and PM12's for the mains. Monitors are LS1202M. Since we are limited to channels on the board we are going to pre mix the drums in a separate board and run them to the main board, if that is advisable. We are a five piece band that plays originals, a blend of country, rock, and blues and we don't play loud. We want to have more control of the sound to adjust to room acoustics and balance everything out. Packing space is an issue , too. I'm going to build the sub myself so, there a lot of options to choose from.

    Tedward
     
  2. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

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    fEarful 12 subs are compact and punch hard. Add crossover and a good power amp, run your PA bi-amped, use the on board power in your mixer for monitors. If you are going to DIY, do that! They deliver tight punchy bass as opposed to DJ HipHop, RAP style bass. For Bluesy, alt-country - perfect.

    Sub mixing drums is fine as long as the sub mix board has adequate channel EQ, preferably sweepable mids... I liked a 12 channel Yamaha recording board for that. Sweepable mids, 4 compressors. Really a nice little board that I only ever used for sub mixing drums.

    Probably the one thing that will make or break live drums is... How well tuned the kit is. Great sounding drums need a lot less work. Not so great sounding drums are a struggle just to get bearable and even then...
     
  3. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member

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    was there a question in there?

    with a mixer head and little 12" tops, you probably don't even want to put all the drums in there; a bit of kick drum may be all you need anyway. if you're loud enough that the rest of the drums need mic'ed, you likely need a lot more PA and an actual soundguy running it.

    a homebrew sub can work if it's really built to the exact correct specs with the exact correct speaker in it. otherwise, used subs are cheap, and a single powered sub can do the whole job without too much complicated rigging up.
     
  4. agreatheight

    agreatheight

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    I more or less agree with this. If it were me, I'd get a single powered sub USED and I'd just drop in the kick and call it good, or the kick and a mono overhead at most. If you want full drums through the PA, you need a more robust solution entirely.
     
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  6. Dave Curran

    Dave Curran Lilduke Supporting Member

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    I run a 4 piece through 12's and 18 subs with everything mic'd in rooms up to 250, or 125 outdoors.
     
  7. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp Supporting Member

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    My small system is a Behringer powered mixer with Carvin PM12 tops. To add I sub I just ran the left main output to a bridged Crown XLS2000 amp with a low pass filter set to 105 hz into a single Carvin LS1801 sub cab. Now - this doesn't keep the low end out of the 12's, but with the sub handling the lows I didn't have to turn it up that loud anyway.

    I had a Behringer B1500D powered sub that worked well, but I have back and shoulder issues and couldn't lift it's 97 lbs.

    I agree that you should just run a mic on the kick and maybe an overhead. The vocal mics pick up a lot of drums on smaller stages too.
     
  8. Tedward

    Tedward Supporting Member

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    Thanks for the replies, I should have had a cup of coffee before I posted, oh well.

    I have been building cabinets for a while and have a FearFull 16/6, two Jack lite 12's and two Omni 10.5's.

    I hadn't thought or the 12/6 or the Jack Lite 12 either should work in our situation. We want to mic the kick, snare, and have an over head. Which brings up another question what would be a good over head mic?

    Tedward
     
  9. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member

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    you really need to mic the snare?

    as for overheads, you probably already have a row of them across the front of the stage, otherwise known as vocal mics.
     
  10. Zooberwerx

    Zooberwerx Gold Supporting Member

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    ...which is why I rarely have to mic the guitar amps. Never underestimate the power of stagewash. OTOH, the kick gets buried quickly unless mic'd.

    Riis
     
  11. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

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    I put a mid bypass switch in my 12.6 cabs. I used to double them up on larger sound jobs and run 1 12.6 and 1 12 sub per side... Those cabs get surprisingly loud and low.

    My drum mic regimen is Audix D6 on the kick, I5 on the snare/ hat, R0de medium diaphragm condenser over head. I forget the model. Looks like a C1000 but sounds way better...
     
  12. Tedward

    Tedward Supporting Member

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    A mid switch sounds like a good idea.

    A condenser mic for the over head is best choice?

    Tedward
     
  13. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

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    Yep. I get a natural kit sound doing that. If you want the big 'arena' country drum thing you have to mic every drum and run gates to deal with all the bleed. Ick...
     
  14. wcriley

    wcriley

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    I've used a fEARful 12/6 as a sub with a pair of Jack10s. It works well to "fill out" the bottom end of kick drum, a single overhead, bass guitar and down-tuned acoustic guitar...as long as your overall volume level isn't ridiculous and you're not going for DJ-type boom/thump.

    I've found that crossing over around 120 works well (for me) with that setup.

    I don't understand the purpose of a mid bypass switch, though.
     
  15. Codger

    Codger Supporting Member

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    Well, it would take the mid out, though it would run the woofer full range. Maybe if one were relying on a decent electronic x-over, though if it were set below the stock 800 Hz-ish crossover in the fEarful it doesn't seem as if it would matter - the mid would be gone in either case. I guess I am with you on that one. We are currently crossing over our subs at 80 Hz, which I think it is too low but I do not insist.
     
  16. Tedward

    Tedward Supporting Member

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    The reason I would put a switch in to cut out the mid is I like the old school sound at times. That way I can run the woofer wide open. As far as using it for a sub I have an electronic x-over I can use.

    Tedward
     
  17. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

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    Mid switch allows you to wire directly to the woofer and run biamped. I like 120 as well... With 4, 2 12.subs and 2 12.6's with the mid switches running off a plx 2402. It made a pretty healthy PA sub setup.
     
  18. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

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    I posted a link to a nice article on various drum mic'ing techniques in this forum today. It is shure sponsored and came to me via the prosound.web daily email. I wouldn't necessarily do a studio recording with the3 mic setup but... For live it it works for my purposes. Like I mentioned, the Arena crowd will require more effort.
     
  19. wcriley

    wcriley

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    Ah. I was only thinking about a 12/6 being used strickly as a sub.
     
  20. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

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    If you are crossing into it in the 100 to 120 range whre a lot of PA subs cross, then it won't matter much. When I was first running my 12.6 cabs I biamped with an Eden WT800a - which was a killer setup! I didn't bother installing the crossover until later and decided I wanted both the pure bi-amp and the full range operation. I still have one of those 12.6 cabs setup that way though I never bi-amp it any more.
     

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